Posted By: barneyIt's a fact of life that some are going to break the rules - generally we have to live with that unless there's draconian regulation - and that ain't going to happen over a few PV's is it - it would drive costs through the roof.

We already have to comply with the draconian regulations and pay serious money for the privilege.

The scam companies have simply found a loophole that allows them to operate without worrying about any of this that gives them a hugely unfair advantage in the market, as well as enabling them to destroy consumer confidence in the entire market through their shoddy practices, and then they leave the rest of us to pick up the pieces by folding the company as soon as their reputation starts to cause them problems.

Once they fold the company, all warranty costs then transfer to the warranty insurance schemes, which ultimately means that the rest of us are left to pick up the tab for that as well in terms of increased premiums, as well as increased fees to REAL to allow them to cover the costs of the staff needed to deal with the level of complaints generated by these companies.

Have you tried trading standards recently ! seemed a bit dis-interested when both my customer and i went to them regarding a bogus internet supplier (thankfully paid the £4K for flooring on credit card)
Along with citzens advice, up near the top on the list for budget cuts, I think, in these so called austere time
thanks LibCon/ConLib :)

OK Gavin

I pay for membership of several professional bodies, my BREEAM core licence and scheme costs more per anum than £1 - 2K per annum. Add on energy assessor, AC inspector, domestic costs etc - therse are the costs I pay to be in the industry - same as you. Don't you think I see sharp practice with non BREEAM assessors undertaking the work, with students collecting data for EPC tec etc.

If there is a loop hole - someone will exploit it - that's what defines loop holes. There is nothing new in this. If you genuinely thought your "registration body2ws going to protct a marketplace think again - just look at the parrallel of NICEIC et al registering short cycle trained electricians who some would have you believe have wreaked havoc in the domestic installation market.

One thing you may want to ponder on is all these old pensioners who had money to invest in PV - was that just because they had money to invest and they thought the return was better than sticking it in the bank or in bonds.

As for a free market liberal, then i agree with a free market although I'm probably not a typical liberal - your way would be draconian registration of individual onstallers with a total operating cost probably outweighing a good percentage of the market sector.

As I said, there appear to be plenty of well performing systems and I see a few that obviously werer only installed simply to take davantage of the FITS - I mentioned the ground array near me held together with baler twine - it grows and shrinks a bit every month - I get the impression it's feedstock for a few local players that all have the proper logos on the new vans.

As for my parents - I advised them not to bother as the roof aspect is wrong and the local environment too shaded for both PV and solar thermal. My neighbour however took my advice and installed PV after first examining 3 local companies and taking up references - nice south facing roof with a small amount of shading from a high, eaves exit chimmney - two arrays and two invertors cured that problem.

I don't disagree that there are plenty of rouges out there, it was ever thus. As I said, them's the breaks

Regards

Barney

No - but's that's not the thrust of this post is it - it's actually about wannabe vigilante PV installers deciding that the competion is crap (and it may well be) and agitating for what, on the surface, is an installers cartel that protects the market place - I'm just not sure if that's for the consumers benefit or the installer.

If you want it to change, then join, and make accountable those people that you pay your fees to ?

As I said, it would be intersting to see just how many installations of PV are fine and how many are not - if it's anything like the electrical domestic sector, there'll be plenty of "arbut whatif" from the established sector claiming that the short cycle "Part P" domestic instalers are caarrying out dangerous work - but the streets are not littered with bodies and we are not surrounded by smouldering hulks.

Personally, I'm just not convinced that there is a problem of any real scale

Regards

Barney

Actually, I'm not sure that's what they are talking about. I think what they are talking about is a tough market place where they have struggled to compete with high pressure sales and poor installations - ask yourself how this no win, no fee works against companies that either no longer exist or are quietly moving on to the next "must have" item ?

Does anyone want to take a stab at the number of totally US installations out there - and that's not the ones that look pig ugly, are unconventional in layout or have nice roof overhangs - the ones that really won't generate even a small % of potential.

Regards

Barney

Posted By: barneyOne thing you may want to ponder on is all these old pensioners who had money to invest in PV - was that just because they had money to invest and they thought the return was better than sticking it in the bank or in bonds.

I've absolutely no problem with pensioners investing in solar PV if they want to as long as they're getting reasonable price and performance estimates so they can make a considered choice on the matter.

why do you want companies to be let off the hook though who are pressure selling to these people (who're supposed to be protected by consumer law even for none REAL companies), at complete rip off prices, with totally unrealistic performance and payback estimates being used to justify those rip off prices.

Why do you think that this should just be allowed to carry on and nobody should be prepared to assist them in obtaining refunds for the miss selling without being accused of just being out to protect our own interests?

tbh if you're not trolling here, then you need to seriously go and have a word with yourself, as your attitude stinks.

2 sides of the same coin though. The price would be justified by the returns they claim, without those made up returns the prices isn't justified, and the customer would never have bought at that price without being lied to.

he's not making a valid point at all, he's justifying scum ripping off those who don't know any better - well, unless you judge that as being a valid point as well. Whether or not he actually realises that's what he's doing is another question, but it is what he's excusing on this thread.

Sounds a familiar tactic to me. Did she have a West Country accent?

Gavin
To the best of my knowledge the there was only ever an estimate of earning with large caveats for when it does not happen. Selling it as a fixed return investment is a case for trading standards/REAL surely. I think REAL should be doing their job. Do you know of any successful claims through them?

I wasn't suggesting that the companies are let off the hook (although a self representing no win no fee scheme operated by a PV company leaves an odd taste)

I was simply suggesting that there are good, bad and indifferent operators in every field - if you want a comparison look at high pressure sales of say boiler service agreements etc.

Personally, I still don't believe that anything other than a fraction of installations don't work and that a small number underperform. I suspect most underperform stated lab test output regardless of installer.

It's easy to get too close to the perceived problem - look back at my reference to part P and 5 day wonders for a parallel. If we really do want draconian regulation of something as simple an innocuous as a bit of PV or solar tharmal who do you suggest pays - and would that cost totally kill an emerging market.

In the grand scheme of things a few misold PV panels is inevitibale in any attempt to kickstart a market - in simple terms there are many more green kw's being generated today than 5 years ago - a few casualties along the way for sure - but the original intent is being realised.

I'm sorry if you think that's trolling - it's just a difference of opinion on the scale and importance each of us places on the issue. One thing to remember though - in any sale or bid for a project the phrase "Can we charge a premium" will appear - there are two sides to the contract and in my experience most consumers are pretty savvy

Regards

Barney