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Green Building Bible, Fourth Edition
Green Building Bible, fourth edition (both books)
These two books are the perfect starting place to help you get to grips with one of the most vitally important aspects of our society - our homes and living environment.

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    • CommentAuthorCWatters
    • CommentTimeFeb 5th 2015
     
    Nearby wind farm has two sizes of turbines 100m and 130m. All this week (light winds I think) the smaller turbines have been running but the larger ones have been stationary. I thought the cut in speed for larger turbines was lower? Anyone?
    • CommentAuthorcjard
    • CommentTimeFeb 5th 2015
     
    Wind turbines don't necessarily run all the time - they only run when there's a demand for the electricity they produce (which is in turn influenced by the price of electricity they produce; it can be higher than fossil based kilowatts)

    My BCO also claims turbines are sometimes used as motors to soak up excess power in the grid, so it might not even be the case that the ones you see moving are producing power!
    • CommentAuthorEd Davies
    • CommentTimeFeb 5th 2015
     
    AIUI, reasons for not running a turbine are:

    1) It's broken.
    2) Not enough wind.
    3) Too much wind.
    4) Local grid doesn't have the capacity to take the power.

    In light winds for multiple turbines (2) seems to the only likely case.

    The idea of using turbines motoring to soak up excess power seems rather implausible (where would excess come from other than other nearby turbines indicating it's windy?).

    What I understand they do do, though, is in light variable conditions motor them round in the lulls to have the momentum to generate during the gusts (rather than just use the gust to spin up the turbine in time for it slow back down again) so that on balance they're generating more than they consume. I'd imagine they'd have to weigh this small amount of generation against the wear and tear of having the turbines turning at all. Perhaps the economics of this work out differently for the large turbines.
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeFeb 5th 2015 edited
     
    I did read that the electronics are/can be used for grid balancing, but not read anything about it for years, so may have been a pipe dream from some installer.

    Two small (50kW) turbines near me seems to have one down most of the time, and have noticed that a few further west have not been running. I suspect that this is a maintenance issue as there are not enough large ones in Penwith to affect the grid significantly. I think there is only a couple of companies locally that maintain them, and both are small.
    The one at the 'Great WOW' or Heartlands I have not seen turning for years, but then it is a VAWT. The one at the EA office is working again, it is an old 15kW Proven.
    • CommentAuthorCWatters
    • CommentTimeFeb 6th 2015
     
    I know there are other reasons why they might not all be running but seemed odd for so many to be out of action for a week. I guess there might be a fault that only affects the larger array.
    • CommentAuthorSeret
    • CommentTimeFeb 6th 2015
     
    Posted By: Ed DaviesAIUI, reasons for not running a turbine are:

    1) It's broken.
    2) Not enough wind.
    3) Too much wind.
    4) Local grid doesn't have the capacity to take the power.


    Or:

    5) Scheduled maintenance
    • CommentAuthorTriassic
    • CommentTimeFeb 6th 2015
     
    or:

    6) they have been paid not to produce electricity.
    • CommentAuthorskyewright
    • CommentTimeFeb 6th 2015 edited
     
    Posted By: Triassicor:
    6) they have been paid not to produce electricity.

    Isn't that 4), seen from a different angle (& depending on contracts)?
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeFeb 6th 2015
     
    Changing the subject slight to 6) or 4)

    What is best, pay a slightly higher amount for the wind energy and no 'no production' payments or pay slightly less per MWh and give a 'no production' payment.
    I think it would work out the same cost. But it does fit in with the way the energy generation market works at present, so no need to make wind a special case.
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeFeb 6th 2015
     
    or:
    7) wet leaves on the track
    • CommentAuthorEd Davies
    • CommentTimeFeb 6th 2015
     
    Posted By: SteamyTeaWhat is best, pay a slightly higher amount for the wind energy and no 'no production' payments or pay slightly less per MWh and give a 'no production' payment.
    The “no production” payments do motivate the grid operators to ensure there's infrastructure available to carry away the energy most of the time it's being generated. Without them their motivation to provide transit for power in the odd cases of high production but low consumption in an area would be much weaker.
  1.  
    Posted By: cjardMy BCO also claims turbines are sometimes used as motors to soak up excess power in the grid, so it might not even be the case that the ones you see moving are producing power!

    I wonder what makes people thinks the grid has such a requirement of turbines, & if there is such a requirement how do they think the grid used to cope with it before it had turbines to 'turn' to?
    • CommentAuthorsnyggapa
    • CommentTimeFeb 6th 2015 edited
     
    I have a suspicion that the "grid" probably doesn't pick up the tab for these, the cost probably gets smeared back to all market participants (producers, I guess) , and hence ultimately the end consumer

    In the same way that I believe we in effect subsidise the scots when the English and Scottish grids were unified - without enough capacity to move all of the wind production out of Scotland, the payments to Scottish generators to not run ran into, I believe, tens or hundreds of millions of poonds. I think that gets charged back to the industry as a whole, so no real incentive to build new transmission lines from North to South.

    -Steve
    (note the caveats - this is from memory, I think this is correct but I don't know if things have changed)

    --edit-- found a doc that shows how costs changed

    https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/ofgem-publications/52935/20090217managing-constraints.pdf

    table 1 shows costs in the order of 200 million pounds per year (2008-2010) incurred as a result of constraint costs of the Scottish system - about 90% of the total costs for the whole of the UK...
    • CommentAuthorEd Davies
    • CommentTimeFeb 6th 2015
     
    Posted By: snyggapa: “In the same way that I believe we in effect subsidise the scots when the English and Scottish grids were unified - without enough capacity to move all of the wind production out of Scotland, the payments to Scottish generators to not run ran into, I believe, tens or hundreds of millions of poonds.”

    Definitely not hundreds of millions of pounds. Maybe tens of millions though windfarms off the south coast of England got quite a lot and the total for all windfarms is only £34 million (which is, in turn, only 10% of the total amount of constraint payments to all types of generators). Note also that there's a new link being built to improve transmission from the Scottish parts of the grid to the English and Welsh parts so any such “subsidy” should be short lived.

    http://www.carbonbrief.org/blog/2013/03/why-windfarms-get-paid-to-switch-off

    “Windfarms and constraint payments

    Between 2011 and 2012, National Grid says constraint payments to windfarms were just over ten per cent of the total amount paid to all generators - about £34 million.

    Windfarms produce less than five per cent of our electricity so the payments they are getting are out of proportion to the amount of electricity they generate.

    This is because the grid relies on old infrastructure which absorbs electricity from coal and gas plants more easily than from wind, according to renewables supplier Good Energy. This makes it easier to switch off the wind supply and keep the grid functioning rather than reducing electricity supply from coal or gas.

    This makes windfarms a better choice for National Grid when choosing which power plants to turn off when there is oversupply - and renewables trade association Renewable UK says this means they get proportionately more constraint payments.”
    • CommentAuthorsnyggapa
    • CommentTimeFeb 6th 2015
     
    i would think that there is an enormous dfference between payments (directly) to windfarms, in effect to stop them rotating which may be 10% of the total, and payments caused by wind turbines when other plants are paid not to run.

    If you think about it, a coal or gas plant can afford to be paid less to be constrained back because not only do they get paid not to generate but they keep the valuable coal or gas that would have been burned.

    I dont blame the wind farms, more the unification of the english/scottish grid without proper interconnectivity to support the imbalance of generation to consumption

    -Steve
  2.  
    When Brazil and China are now transmitting large quantities of electricity getting on for 3000 km from generation to consumption, it seems rather poor that we're struggling to connect Scotland and England!
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeFeb 6th 2015
     
    Think that is a different issue. Bulk transmission is not the same.
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