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    •  
      CommentAuthorJustin
    • CommentTimeSep 29th 2019 edited
     
    Can I ask for some up-front ideas here please to get me enthused and moving again, and have more to kick about?

    Due to work and other commitments the efficiency improvements to my house ground to a halt two or three years ago, and they need to be kick-started again.

    I attach an image of the outside front. Nothing much to see there, Yes, it's dull. (But from the rear we do have 20 mile green view from our gorgeous elevated location :).

    It’s conventional early 1970’s with medium block (that nasty black power-station tailings block), blown urea filled cavity. Original builders blessed us with their deep money-saving skeilings to the first floor, which, as was the way, they kindly filled with fresh air for us.
    I added a new large wrap-round rear extension 15 yrs ago in brick and block which used 90mm cavity (60mm PIR internally to the wall), with additional 25mm PIR dry-lining. I have 3G (Adpol) timber glazing to the rear.
    I’ve stripped out empty plasterboard skeilings through most of the first floor, and replaced with (eaves ventilated) 120mm PIR build up between and under, and I’ve internally dry-lined internal walls with additional (variously depending on the space) 50..100mm PIR. I have always taken as much detailed care as I possibly can throughout with meticulous VCL and sealing the PIR boards both to the wall and between as far as It’s been possible, even into the electrical outlets.
    The massively inefficient internal garage has been sealed off on the internal house side with 100mm PIR to all it’s internal (single skin) walls, and to its ceiling also to the bedroom above. There are still cold bridges – notably floor penetrations and some window reveals, but the world (and my house), remains imperfect. I have not yet “treated” the top left room in this pic, It’s the cold one. Enough of the history.

    Q)
    Front windows you see are typical UPVC 1980’s nastiness and they need to go. Internally on the downstairs and upstairs (one room) I’ve already remedially insulated as above. I did what I could into the existing (solid) reveals with 15mm PIR (as much as would fit to the old window frames), but cold-bridging there is inevitably still evident.
    Fixing the front elevation to do the windows will be a missed opportunity unless I take this deeper. I must for starters fix the tile hung zone. (Plasterboard-air-felt-tiles! lovely). Also to potentially to shrink the window openings by wrapping a better layer of PIR into the reveals. This would then tie up with – maybe- a breathable EWI and render to just this elevation*. Eaves aren’t generous, perhaps 120mm (asbestos board soffits), and the most thickness I could realistically add externally would be ~ 60mm including a render (If I render, that’s TBD, but a cladding may work OK.
    I have an idea to swap the windows for single large pane downstairs (we scarcely open it), and to shrink the upstairs to a horizontal on the right and a vertical on the left. Maybe a single-room MHR ventilator downstairs alongside, to run probably only on winter nights when humidity builds up too much.

    I have no mechanical ventilation, and (only if it becomes part of a plan), the sheer shortage off space would restrict to to upstairs rooms only, and even the there’s hardy anywhere to realistically for the fan without a noise nuisance. (Thank you, I am award of Viking House Fresh-r, and it’s been noted..).

    I am bashing about ideas for most economical way to (A), shrink the brickwork openings, (B) to fill the empty timber void tile-hung area, and (C) to remove window reveal cold-bridges, and (D) maybe (or not) marry this with a breathable EWI if that becomes a good idea to hide the former. Weathering detail around reveals and cills is very much my concern, and how this could work with an EWI (which due to my internal alterations would be more of a breathable not-too-thick wrap, and to reduce the temperature gradient in the brickwork, rather than the full-blown thick EWI layer).

    (*The North elevation (wall to the left) is 100% windowless elevation. Perfect, you might think for quick and economical EWI. Yes, want. The floor penetrations and condensation risk thereto would also benefit from that, since after my internal works, those do bother me just a little - However, neighbourly relations don’t lend themselves to any access whatsoever, either working there or to increasing the wall thickness this side. So that will need to wait. Whatever I do to the front needs to be compatible with and to connect into (future hopefully) an easy North elevation EWI upgrade.)
      house.jpg
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeSep 29th 2019 edited
     
    Posted By: JustinAlso to potentially to shrink the window openings by wrapping a better layer of PIR into the reveals.

    Window reveals are one place where aerogel can be worth the money unless you actually want to shrink the windows?

    I have no mechanical ventilation, and (only if it becomes part of a plan), the sheer shortage off space would restrict to to upstairs rooms only, and even the there’s hardy anywhere to realistically for the fan without a noise nuisance.

    A MEV system or a dMEV one might be doable? Whether you fit a mechanical ventilation system and what type will affect your windows - whether they need vents or not.

    to fill the empty timber void tile-hung area

    Isn't that just a matter of filling the space with insulation of your choice (rockwool, cellulose, EPS, sheeps wool, PIR etc etc) and connecting it to EWI on the outside?

    edit: who does the path on the left belong to?
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeSep 29th 2019
     
    Are you doing new windows? 3G ? I would fit new windows outside the reveals overlapping by 20 to 40mm then wrap the EWI round them covering the edge totally and front of the frame as much as possible.

    Windows do look big so you could use say 50mm pir or xps right through from face of new render to inside edge of reveal then use eps for the EWI

    Then live happily ever after
    • CommentAuthorJeff B
    • CommentTimeSep 30th 2019
     
    Justin - regards EWI on the windowless side wall. What do you intend to do at the edges where the wall joins the front and rear elevations? Curious because I am still contemplating what to do in my place. You can see a photo of our gable end in this thread:

    http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16226

    I have the added problem that there is practically zero overhang of the roof!
  1.  
    Posted By: Jeff BJustin - regards EWI on the windowless side wall. What do you intend to do at the edges where the wall joins the front and rear elevations? Curious because I am still contemplating what to do in my place. You can see a photo of our gable end in this thread:

    http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16226" rel="nofollow" >http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16226

    I have the added problem that there is practically zero overhang of the roof!


    do you mean the detailing join from EWI to face brick/cavity wall finish ?
    I did one where I just protuded the EWI 10mm and bead it up on both 90deg edge and render finished it. to creat a kind of framing feature , looked quite good even if I do say so myself :bigsmile:
    • CommentAuthorjamesingram
    • CommentTimeSep 30th 2019 edited
     
    as a side note , I've been building my window extension boxes (into EWI) out of 12mm cement board (aquapanel/hardibacker) as I've felt the need for a fire proof barrier internally between the window frame/ reveals and the EPS EWI overides the thermal bridging alone the cement board (which can be reduced with internal reveals finished with insulation backed plasterboard as a quick and tidy way to make good internal over old existing reveals)
    • CommentAuthorJeff B
    • CommentTimeOct 1st 2019
     
    <blockquote><cite>Posted By: jamesingram</cite><blockquote><cite>Posted By: Jeff B</cite>Justin - regards EWI on the windowless side wall. What do you intend to do at the edges where the wall joins the front and rear elevations? Curious because I am still contemplating what to do in my place. You can see a photo of our gable end in this thread:

    <a href="<a href=" comments.php?discussionid="16226"" rel="nofollow">http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16226</a>" rel="nofollow" >http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16226

    I have the added problem that there is practically zero overhang of the roof!</blockquote>

    do you mean the detailing join from EWI to face brick/cavity wall finish ?
    I did one where I just protuded the EWI 10mm and bead it up on both 90deg edge and render finished it. to creat a kind of framing feature , looked quite good even if I do say so myself<img src="/newforum/extensions/Vanillacons/smilies/standard/bigsmile.gif" alt=":bigsmile:" title=":bigsmile:"></img></blockquote>

    I mean, as in Justin's example, where the windowless north facing wall meets the windowed front west facing wall. If he applies EWI right to the edge then the end of the insulation will be visible. If the north wall is clad with timber cladding I guess it would be ok to just apply strips of cladding vertically to "box in" the corner.
  2.  
    jeff B cheers , thats what I thought you meant , and my solution was to render and bead the edge.
    A Cladding box to match the potentially clad front seems a good solution also.
    • CommentAuthorJeff B
    • CommentTimeOct 1st 2019
     
    jamesingram - did you do the EWI work yourself, including the rendering? I could definitely do the insulating bit but I am totally useless at rendering anything with anything, plaster, cement, you name it. So I definitely would not attempt to use these new modern, thin, polymer-type renders. My dilemma would be finding a local plasterer who is familiar with applying the latter or would a decent plasterer be able to cope do you think? I have been on the MyBuilder website tonight just to register and see if there is any interest locally.

    P.S. Apologies to Justin for hijacking this thread but hopefully some of these issues will be of interest to him too.
    • CommentAuthorjamesingram
    • CommentTimeOct 1st 2019 edited
     
    im a jobbing builder, I cant plaster or render anything larger than a few m2 if you want it flat but the thin mesh coat renders are very forgiving and in fact far easier than plastering or traditional rendering. if you can use a hawk and trowel (the flick onto trowel from hawk move) you might be ok.
    The EPS board gives a good flat surface and the gear goes on at a steady thickness with an even pressure on the trowel (about 6mm first pass) you then trowel the mesh in and this actually smooths the render out to an even thickness , you can then just fill any short area with a little more render and get it a ok ish finish with the trowel or long tapping blade. its pretty easy to blend in sections so you can do a bit at a time.
    the real trick is when its close to going harder you can smooth it all out (remove trowel marks) with a damp sponge, doing circular motions.
    this pulls up the grits for a bit for a key for the primer and top coat.
    the 1.5mm top coat also gets rid of and small misses etc so the mesh coat doesnt need to be perfect.

    Top coat does need a constant wet edge and a steady even pattern trowel motion but it you get it on tight it rubs up easy, again with circular motions with a plastic finishing trowel. its a 2-3 man job all on the wall together, one troweling on one rubbing up.
    This bit need more care and to be done in one hit on each wall with the right weather conditions
    I've seen guys put it on far rougher than I would, with mesh grining through and trowel marks and still get a good final finish. i may well be over doing myself.

    Another way I've done it to insure even spread it to trowel it on at about 10mm the run a long square notched trowel/blade over the wholes area to get an even coverage ( like wall tiling) you then trowel in the mesh til it covered and sponge later if necessary.

    I'm sure youll find a local plasterer thats had some experience of it nowadays. The eastern europeans do loads of it at home so might be a place to start if youve got a few a local
    • CommentAuthorjamesingram
    • CommentTimeOct 1st 2019 edited
     
    recent job using thincoat system
      IMG-20190624-WA0003.jpg
  3.  
    current 200mm project
      IMG-20190928-WA0003.jpg
    • CommentAuthorJeff B
    • CommentTimeOct 1st 2019
     
    James - the way you describe it, it sounds so easy! As you say, maybe I will find a local plasterer who is familiar with the new render systems. I have been contemplating red cedar cladding (which would be more DIY friendly) until I checked the cost - wow!

    I see you have the exact same situation on the gable end of your “current 200mm project” as I do i.e. zero overhang with those tiles. How are you going to cover the top of the insulation? Extend the roof or use this kind of profile:

    https://www.insulationshop.co/50mm_Wemico_wec_791_verge_trim_upstand_profile.html
    • CommentAuthorjamesingram
    • CommentTimeOct 2nd 2019 edited
     
    I'll extend the roof with a gable ladder or perhaps just shoot some heavier gauge batons (4/1maybe) over the eps and hang a barge board off them.
    I did contemplate bringing down the gable wall but it's 'no-fines' concrete construction so all a bit vague structurally speaking.
    That's why I'm trying to get the front up to primed stage whilst I ponder how to approach the side
    One advantage of extending the roof is it'll give me space for another 2 pv panels round back
    :bigsmile:
  4.  
    Re cedar , I did a job about a decade ago clad with feather edge cedar. Got a local sawmill to cut it from some trunks they had , come in around Ă‚ÂŁ1.50ish linear metre for 125mm, I think.
    Wasn't the tight shiplap finish you get but looked good and still does.
  5.  
    Posted By: Jeff B
    I see you have the exact same situation on the gable end of your “current 200mm project” as I do i.e. zero overhang with those tiles. How are you going to cover the top of the insulation?


    You could always fit a skylight or roof integrated solar panel(s) and use the removed tiles to extend the roof over the gable end.
    • CommentAuthorJeff B
    • CommentTimeOct 2nd 2019 edited
     
    <blockquote><cite>Posted By: Pile-o-Stone</cite><blockquote><cite>Posted By: Jeff B</cite>
    I see you have the exact same situation on the gable end of your “current 200mm project” as I do i.e. zero overhang with those tiles. How are you going to cover the top of the insulation?</blockquote>

    You could always fit a skylight or roof integrated solar panel(s) and use the removed tiles to extend the roof over the gable end.</blockquote>

    Actually I do have a stack of spare slates here that I could use, although they would be newer in appearance than the rest of the roof which would make them stand out a bit. I already have four Velux windows in the roof so I don't need any more! I just don't fancy extending the roof as I think it would be beyond my capabilities. I quite fancy the aluminium profile that I mentioned in my post above. I could use some matching mahogany uPVC edging under the overhang (I know that's very small, maybe 15 mm) and over the lip on the profile and both screwed together on the wall.
    • CommentAuthorJeff B
    • CommentTimeOct 2nd 2019 edited
     
    <blockquote><cite>Posted By: jamesingram</cite>I'll extend the roof with a gable ladder or perhaps just shoot some heavier gauge batons (4/1maybe) over the eps and hang a barge board off them.
    I did contemplate bringing down the gable wall but it's 'no-fines' concrete construction so all a bit vague structurally speaking.
    That's why I'm trying to get the front up to primed stage whilst I ponder how to approach the side
    One advantage of extending the roof is it'll give me space for another 2 pv panels round back
    <img src="/newforum/extensions/Vanillacons/smilies/standard/bigsmile.gif" alt=":bigsmile:" title=":bigsmile:"></img></blockquote>

    James - you don't fancy using the aluminium profile on the top of the insulation then?
    • CommentAuthorJeff B
    • CommentTimeOct 2nd 2019
     
    This was another idea I had some time back for partial EWI which I posted on the forum but generally got negative feedback. I thought it might be a good idea just to insulate to attic level as it is a cold roof set up anyway. It might look a bit odd I suppose.
      Pine end with EWI cropped and resized.jpg
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeOct 3rd 2019
     
    Building in thermal bridging from the gable down into the wall, inside and outside

    I would take EWI down below g/l and up 300mm min above ceiling height

    I like it though, positive feedback, flashing could be slates slotted into angle grindered slot and siliconed and overhanging the face of the render
    • CommentAuthorjamesingram
    • CommentTimeOct 3rd 2019 edited
     
    Jeff , personally I don't like the look of the profiles solution on my place, especially at the intersection corner , as its 200mm I think it would be a shame not to try to reduce any thermal bridging as much as practically possible.
    Yes I'll lose heat up the gable wall into the loft space but my header tank is up on that side above 400mm loft quilt so could prob ably do with a little heat.

    I think Tony's idea of creating a little slate pitch on top of it could work well on yours
    • CommentAuthorJeff B
    • CommentTimeOct 3rd 2019 edited
     
    Tony - thanks for your comments. I like your idea of a slate cover for the overhang!

    My wife has pointed out, quite rightly, that I failed to mention the fact that our place is a dormer bungalow so what lies behind the large gable end is quite a complicated arrangement. There is a chimney breast running up the centre and a portion of the wall forms part of the bedroom wall, with only some of the attic space on the other side i.e. that part behind the dwarf walls and the part right up in the top of the apex. (Not very well explained - please see sketch!). Hence she says all the more reason to EWI the whole of the gable end. The situation with the smaller gable is more straightforward - behind the apex part of the wall is 100% attic space and behind the local rectangular area is the lounge.

    If we go below ground level, what about the DPC, won't I be bridging over that? Plus currently we have a birdlip at the bottom of the wall to provide a drip edge.
      Gable end annotated.jpg
    • CommentAuthorJeff B
    • CommentTimeOct 3rd 2019
     
    <blockquote><cite>Posted By: jamesingram</cite>Jeff , personally I don't like the look of the profiles solution on my place, especially at the intersection corner , as its 200mm I think it would be a shame not to try to reduce any thermal bridging as much as practically possible.
    Yes I'll lose heat up the gable wall into the loft space but my header tank is up on that side above 400mm loft quilt so could prob ably do with a little heat.

    I think Tony's idea of creating a little slate pitch on top of it could work well on yours</blockquote>

    I understand, yes.
  6.  
    I'd be tempted to add insulation all the way up to the ridge of the roof and extend the roof over the insualtion. It's the neatest job, no worries about damp, no worries about failed flashing, no thermal bridges. It's a job you'll do once so worth doing the best you can?

    You have to do something though now that you've put red spray paint all over your house!
  7.  
    Jeff, as you've a habitable attic space i'd say the only decent solution is to do the gable as PoS suggested
    • CommentAuthorJeff B
    • CommentTimeOct 3rd 2019
     
    <blockquote><cite>Posted By: Pile-o-Stone</cite>I'd be tempted to add insulation all the way up to the ridge of the roof and extend the roof over the insualtion. It's the neatest job, no worries about damp, no worries about failed flashing, no thermal bridges. It's a job you'll do once so worth doing the best you can?

    You have to do something though now that you've put red spray paint all over your house!</blockquote>

    Deep down I know that's the best solution but I've a feeling it's going to add a lot to the cost as I don't think I could DIY it. James has suggested a gable ladder which I could make but I don't know how that would be attached to the existing gable end as there is no external rafter? I'll ask.

    Re: red paint. Yes that was big mistake, but there had to be a way to get the wife to agree that we have to do something!
    • CommentAuthorJeff B
    • CommentTimeOct 3rd 2019
     
    <blockquote><cite>Posted By: jamesingram</cite>Jeff, as you've a habitable attic space i'd say the only decent solution is to do the gable as PoS suggested</blockquote>

    James - any tips on how to construct a gable bridge with the situation I have please i.e. no external rafters/bargeboards?
  8.  
    This similar thread turned up some more awesomeness by FosterTom,

    Also highlighted (for me) how important it is to insulate the _inside_ face of the wall in the attic space, and ideally over the top of the wall so the ewi connects to the roof insulation. There's literally no point having 200mm insulation on the outside, if cold can simply bypass it by coming from the loft, down through the gable wall and into the ground floor rooms.

    http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=15603&page=2#Item_5
    • CommentAuthorjamesingram
    • CommentTimeOct 4th 2019 edited
     
    Tom loves the old 'hit and miss' rafter/stub joist solution. I've followed on of his ideas in the past to avoid thermal bridge on some cantilevered flase eaves extensions sitting on top of a warm roof.

    Jeff, GIve it a few weeks and I'll post up some picks of what I come up with at my place.

    for your gable without barge board you could strip back a or 2 rafters and send a strip of OSB over the rafter/wall/insulation , fix it to the rafter, felt and baton over it and at the edge stop it a little short so as the slates lays on the EWI last 25mm , the render up to them ( giving them a 50mm over hang over EWI finish )

    as Will suggests , getting some insulation under the OSB and on top of your wall would also be good, but to keep the pitch flat would require dropping your wall a little to get it in.
    • CommentAuthorjamesingram
    • CommentTimeOct 4th 2019 edited
     
    maybe ply might be better
    ('possible additional insulation areas')
      gable thing.jpg
   
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