Green Building Forum - Philosophy of decision making Tue, 19 Dec 2023 08:41:27 +0000 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/ Lussumo Vanilla 1.0.3 Philosophy of decision making http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17687&Focus=299458#Comment_299458 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17687&Focus=299458#Comment_299458 Mon, 02 Jan 2023 09:13:56 +0000 tony
I have a problem with this philosophy, what if they are wrong?

If or when they are wrong then that is when I have a big problem.]]> Philosophy of decision making http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17687&Focus=299459#Comment_299459 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17687&Focus=299459#Comment_299459 Mon, 02 Jan 2023 09:57:57 +0000 Cliff Pope Philosophy of decision making http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17687&Focus=299462#Comment_299462 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17687&Focus=299462#Comment_299462 Mon, 02 Jan 2023 11:53:21 +0000 Jonti Philosophy of decision making http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17687&Focus=299463#Comment_299463 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17687&Focus=299463#Comment_299463 Mon, 02 Jan 2023 17:38:27 +0000 fostertom Philosophy of decision making http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17687&Focus=299466#Comment_299466 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17687&Focus=299466#Comment_299466 Mon, 02 Jan 2023 20:00:58 +0000 kristeva Philosophy of decision making http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17687&Focus=299467#Comment_299467 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17687&Focus=299467#Comment_299467 Mon, 02 Jan 2023 20:40:43 +0000 Jonti Posted By: fostertomNot really - it's a red flag which immediately gets the dissed 49% collaborating to win by hook or crook 'next time' - recipe for division. Ancient Greeks knew that majority voting was the worst possible system - their democracy was nothing like our so-called ditto.

Yet most important decisions are pretty clear cut Tom. Wasn't ancient Greek democracy 'rule by the elite' which is pretty much what we have here in the UK.]]> Philosophy of decision making http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17687&Focus=299470#Comment_299470 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17687&Focus=299470#Comment_299470 Tue, 03 Jan 2023 10:51:25 +0000 fostertom Posted By: Jontimost important decisions are pretty clear cutImportant questions, like capitalism vs socialism, may be clear cut, but in saying the decision is clear cut, you can't mean 'indisputably correct'?

Ancient Greece enfranchised only property-owning men, excluding resident 'foreigners' even if property-owning, women, freemen and slaves - an 'elite' equally heinous as most through history, but very different from our variety. Leave that aside, and the point is how the Greek franchise of rigorous 'equals' (which ours isn't) actually operated, for a heyday of 200yrs.

Above all, our system of doing and saying whatever it takes to scrape a voting majority, by weaving a net of favours, influence, scapegoats and appeals to prejudice, was specifically banned and punishable by exile of anyone who tried it. Instead, a group selected for fixed terms by lottery from among the 'equals', presumed 'educated', would debate issues until near-consensus - much like the present-day model of 'citizens' assembly'.]]> Philosophy of decision making http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17687&Focus=299475#Comment_299475 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17687&Focus=299475#Comment_299475 Tue, 03 Jan 2023 17:23:29 +0000 Cliff Pope Baying mobs are rarely right.]]> Philosophy of decision making http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17687&Focus=299477#Comment_299477 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17687&Focus=299477#Comment_299477 Tue, 03 Jan 2023 20:24:19 +0000 Jonti Posted By: fostertom
Posted By: Jontimost important decisions are pretty clear cut
Important questions, like capitalism vs socialism, may be clear cut, but in saying the decision is clear cut, you can't mean 'indisputably correct'?

I would certainly not claim 'indisputably correct' or even correct. I think you I pointed out that right or wrong (correct or incorrect if you prefer) is more a point of view (rather than fact) It is funny though that I would disagree completely with your example of a 'clear cut' decision. I would think it would be a close call in the UK over capitalism verses socialism where as a clear cut preference when looking at capitalism and communism]]> Philosophy of decision making http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17687&Focus=299480#Comment_299480 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17687&Focus=299480#Comment_299480 Wed, 04 Jan 2023 09:32:58 +0000 fostertom
Communism hasn't existed anywhere in the world as yet - as Marx said, it will only be possible once productivity, 'machines' have reached a level of development that's only getting close now.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Fully-Automated-Luxury-Communism-Manifesto/dp/1786632632/ref=sr_1_1?crid=32HQRYRU0IHIT&keywords=fully+automated+luxury+communism&qid=1672824738&sprefix=fully+automated%2Caps%2C111&sr=8-1]]> Philosophy of decision making http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17687&Focus=299482#Comment_299482 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17687&Focus=299482#Comment_299482 Wed, 04 Jan 2023 09:53:35 +0000 Jonti Posted By: fostertom

Communism hasn't existed anywhere in the world as yet - as Marx said, it will only be possible once productivity, 'machines' have reached a level of development that's only getting close now.


Then I guess neither has capitalism, socialism........ if you want to have a constructive discussion on decision making I am happy to do but if this is going to be an exercise of simply apposing/discrediting the apposing argument then I find it rather dull :sad:]]> Philosophy of decision making http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17687&Focus=299485#Comment_299485 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17687&Focus=299485#Comment_299485 Wed, 04 Jan 2023 10:55:37 +0000 Doubting_Thomas
https://hbr.org/2021/09/some-questions-benefit-from-group-discussion-others-dont]]> Philosophy of decision making http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17687&Focus=299486#Comment_299486 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17687&Focus=299486#Comment_299486 Wed, 04 Jan 2023 11:01:06 +0000 fostertom
I asked you to expand your 'interesting' point, as well as inserting relevant facts about ancient Greece and about communism (incl reference) which you raised. Sounds like a constructive discussion to me.]]> Philosophy of decision making http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17687&Focus=299487#Comment_299487 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17687&Focus=299487#Comment_299487 Wed, 04 Jan 2023 11:20:59 +0000 fostertom
There's lots of research, as well as major live experiments, being done on alternatives to adversarial majority-voting 'democracy', and on 'direct' (whole electorate, or demographically/randomly selected) rather than 'party-voted representative' deliberation.

Anything that aims for greater consensus (rather than simply defeating an opposition) and to integrate info-gathering and empathy in the process (rather than just stating established prejudice) can help with the polarised mess we've sunk into.]]> Philosophy of decision making http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17687&Focus=299493#Comment_299493 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17687&Focus=299493#Comment_299493 Wed, 04 Jan 2023 13:02:48 +0000 borpin Philosophy of decision making http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17687&Focus=299501#Comment_299501 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17687&Focus=299501#Comment_299501 Wed, 04 Jan 2023 15:50:55 +0000 Jeff B
This may take some time of course for the various arguments to be put forward and thought through. The expression "The pen is mightier than the sword" comes to mind.]]> Philosophy of decision making http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17687&Focus=299504#Comment_299504 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17687&Focus=299504#Comment_299504 Wed, 04 Jan 2023 21:29:24 +0000 tony
The consensus is that not many houses in any of the local estates have them so they can’t be necessary]]> Philosophy of decision making http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17687&Focus=299505#Comment_299505 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17687&Focus=299505#Comment_299505 Wed, 04 Jan 2023 22:33:11 +0000 Jeff B Posted By: tonyA more current practical example, a group building a house have to decide whether or not some practical belt and braces approach is worth having or not. e.g. verge clips on the roof tiles.

The consensus is that not many houses in any of the local estates have them so they can’t be necessary

I presume the person who thinks it is a good idea to have verge clips has put forward a reasoned argument based on the positive aspects of installing these? If so, and the idea is still rejected on the grounds you state i.e. that not many houses have them, then so be it. You can lead a horse to water etc......!]]> Philosophy of decision making http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17687&Focus=299506#Comment_299506 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17687&Focus=299506#Comment_299506 Wed, 04 Jan 2023 22:55:07 +0000 kristeva Posted By: borpinThe majority used to think the earth was flat.

And what's even worse the first person to suggest it wasn't was most likely pilloried and shunned from polite society]]> Philosophy of decision making http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17687&Focus=299510#Comment_299510 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17687&Focus=299510#Comment_299510 Thu, 05 Jan 2023 09:19:02 +0000 Artiglio Philosophy of decision making http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17687&Focus=299511#Comment_299511 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17687&Focus=299511#Comment_299511 Thu, 05 Jan 2023 09:54:21 +0000 Jonti Posted By: fostertomJonti, capitalism and socialism certainly have, and do exist. But just as Marx expected socialism to evolve - 'inevitably', he thought - on the foundation of capitalist efficiency, he expected communism, a distant ideal end point, to grow out of hard-graft socialism - the USSR didn't come close, and wasn't going to.

I asked you to expand your 'interesting' point, as well as inserting relevant facts about ancient Greece and about communism (incl reference) which you raised. Sounds like a constructive discussion to me.

Yet the lack of the existence of communism is therefore a sign of its rejection by the vast majority of countries/people in the world is ,for me at least, a clear cut decision. On the flipside, I am not sure many if any of the self named communist regimes would agree with Marx.

As for what constitutes 'important decisions' I would suggest the democracy verses communism is a good example. Also, the collective funding of infrastructure necessary to carry out normal everyday living would be another.

I am not sure if you are expecting further comment on 'Greek democracy' or not but I think most people would consider democracy to mean one person, one vote which means said Greek version fails the test but this is just my opinion.]]> Philosophy of decision making http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17687&Focus=299512#Comment_299512 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17687&Focus=299512#Comment_299512 Thu, 05 Jan 2023 10:25:22 +0000 borpin
Winston S Churchill, 11 November 1947]]> Philosophy of decision making http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17687&Focus=299513#Comment_299513 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17687&Focus=299513#Comment_299513 Thu, 05 Jan 2023 11:22:25 +0000 fostertom Posted By: Jontithe lack of the existence of communism is therefore a sign of its rejection by the vast majority of countries/people in the worldNo, it's lack is because it's not been technologically possible so far - but now getting close. No-one's been offered Marx's communism so far, though various political projects have falsely claimed to be communism, and more have been ignorantly labelled as communism by their enemies.

Marx had lots to say about the hard-decisions intermediate stage, socialism, but for him communism was too far ahead to say how it would pan out, except that it would be when labour (as a survival necessity) would be eliminated, scarcity replaced by abundance, and work, leisure, learning and personal fulfilment blend together. This would be via a future full deployment of 'machines' as he called it 150yrs ago, or extreme productivity/robotisation as we can now envisage it. Not there yet, and many rich corporations and individuals in the world whose interests oppose it.
Posted By: Jontithe collective funding of infrastructure necessary to carry out normal everyday living
is exactly the battleground.

Really, check out
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Fully-Automated-Luxury-Communism-Manifesto/dp/1786632632/ref=sr_1_1?crid=32HQRYRU0IHIT&keywords=fully+automated+luxury+communism&qid=1672824738&sprefix=fully+automated%2Caps%2C111&sr=8-1
Marx is baffling to read in the original and massively over-complicated, like the bible allowing endless interpretations to be cherry-picked, but this brings my preferred interpretation right into the present/near future. Another to read is
https://www.amazon.co.uk/s?k=why+marx+was+right&ref=nb_sb_noss
which is not what the title says, but entertainingly corrects the many popular, ignorant or deliberate misrepresentations of what Marx actually said.]]> Philosophy of decision making http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17687&Focus=299518#Comment_299518 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17687&Focus=299518#Comment_299518 Thu, 05 Jan 2023 15:37:45 +0000 Dominic Cooney Philosophy of decision making http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17687&Focus=299519#Comment_299519 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17687&Focus=299519#Comment_299519 Thu, 05 Jan 2023 22:02:54 +0000 Jonti
I don't agree that Marx is the only way to assess communism so just because you feel that it is makes for a discussion. However, I believe that the vast majority of the population of the world if asked to name a communist state would be able to name quite a few. This means that for the majority the question 'is there a communist state in the world' would be answered with yes. That does not make my point of view correct nor yours wrong. Successful decision making for large groups of people is less about getting the best or even a correct decision and more about reaching a consensus acceptable to a large enough majority that even if it turns out badly for some/all, those people can still accept the decision.]]> Philosophy of decision making http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17687&Focus=299522#Comment_299522 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17687&Focus=299522#Comment_299522 Fri, 06 Jan 2023 11:01:04 +0000 fostertom Philosophy of decision making http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17687&Focus=299528#Comment_299528 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17687&Focus=299528#Comment_299528 Fri, 06 Jan 2023 14:51:53 +0000 Jeff B Posted By: Jontifostertom,

Successful decision making for large groups of people is less about getting the best or even a correct decision and more about reaching a consensus acceptable to a large enough majority that even if it turns out badly for some/all, those people can still accept the decision.

+1. Examples of where there was not a large majority are BREXIT and Welsh Assembly and still the discontent rolls on. A similar fate awaits Scottish independence if Ms. Sturgeon has her way on calling another referendum.]]> Philosophy of decision making http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17687&Focus=299530#Comment_299530 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17687&Focus=299530#Comment_299530 Fri, 06 Jan 2023 16:01:58 +0000 fostertom Philosophy of decision making http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17687&Focus=299534#Comment_299534 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17687&Focus=299534#Comment_299534 Sat, 07 Jan 2023 07:47:27 +0000 Jonti Posted By: fostertomSo if what's called communism, and rejected, in the world is not what Marx meant, that still leaves Marx's version free to be tried out and assessed. I for one look forward to that experiment, when it becomes technically possible.

Agreed. Yet, IMO it's success will depend less on the 'technical' and more on an emphasis on wellbeing/life satisfaction being the standard by which success is judged rather than money.]]> Philosophy of decision making http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17687&Focus=299545#Comment_299545 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17687&Focus=299545#Comment_299545 Sat, 07 Jan 2023 20:46:31 +0000 borpin https://dilbert.com/strip/2023-01-01]]>