Tue, 19 Dec 2023 08:27:54 +0000 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/ Lussumo Vanilla 1.0.3 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17946&Focus=303202#Comment_303202 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17946&Focus=303202#Comment_303202 Mon, 11 Sep 2023 15:47:04 +0100 Artiglio
This has been put out by our esteemed leaders

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/damp-and-mould-understanding-and-addressing-the-health-risks-for-rented-housing-providers/understanding-and-addressing-the-health-risks-of-damp-and-mould-in-the-home--2#identifying-and-addressing-damp-and-mould-in-your-property

In which a bold statement is made

As this guidance also makes clear, tenants should not be blamed for damp and mould. Damp and mould in the home are not the result of ‘lifestyle choices’, and it is the responsibility of landlords to identify and address the underlying causes of the problem, such as structural issues or inadequate ventilation.

Of course this guidance ignores the effects of high energy costs leading to tenants choosing to heat their homes to lower temps , which has led to a surge in damp/ mould issues.

As a landlord who has improved my properties to EPC C and never in the past had issues when the tenants have used extractor fans in kitchen and bathroom , i’m now left open to endless grief in tenants choose not to use extractors and i can’t (if the guidance is applied to the word) say the problem is solved if they use them and need to find another solution.

To get ahead of the inevitable, i want a solution i can employ asap if needed. All my properties are flats, top floor flats i could fit mvhr easily enough if at a considerable cost ( and attendant increase in rent to tenant) but my mid floor flats are more problematic. PIV seems the only real solution to my mind.

Any thoughts?

Many thanks phil]]> http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17946&Focus=303204#Comment_303204 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17946&Focus=303204#Comment_303204 Mon, 11 Sep 2023 17:26:40 +0100 tony
The reason is that, yes although it works, cooler, drier air is blown into the home using a fan and warmer damp is expelled through cracks, gaps holes and anything that’s not airtight. The upshot is that the tenant pays for the fan to run as well as for the warm air that is expelled. I feel this is exceedingly unfair as the tenant is paying to warm the planet so that the property is protected.

There is a mention of energy efficiency in the link, I suspect that the writers don’t understand what that means! I would like to have seen it say ‘Energy Use Reduction’

Using PIV increases both ventilation and energy use, We need to decrease energy use]]> http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17946&Focus=303206#Comment_303206 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17946&Focus=303206#Comment_303206 Mon, 11 Sep 2023 20:48:52 +0100 djh Posted By: tonyThe reason is that, yes although it works, cooler, drier air is blown into the home using a fan and warmer damp is expelled through cracks, gaps holes and anything that’s not airtight. The upshot is that the tenant pays for the fan to run as well as for the warm air that is expelled. I feel this is exceedingly unfair as the tenant is paying to warm the planet so that the property is protected.Any system of ventilation that doesn't recover the heat (i.e. either MVHR or a passive heat recovery system) has the same 'feature' that you have to pay to heat the fresh incoming air. It doesn't matter whether it's PIV, MEV or simply opening windows. Houses without a balanced ventilation system are required to have trickle vents so that's where I'd expect the bulk of the exhaust air to go.

So I think an objection to PIV systems in particular is unreasonable. Personally my instinct would be to use a MEV system instead though

FWIW https://relocation.no/expat-communities/expat-resource-articles/ventilate-your-home-what-why-and-how/ says "If you are living in a rental property, be sure to look after the property as though it were your own – house owners can and will claim for damages should poor ventilation lead to excessive wear and tear on the property. "]]> http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17946&Focus=303207#Comment_303207 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17946&Focus=303207#Comment_303207 Mon, 11 Sep 2023 21:40:04 +0100 Artiglio http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17946&Focus=303208#Comment_303208 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17946&Focus=303208#Comment_303208 Mon, 11 Sep 2023 22:38:45 +0100 WillInAberdeen Posted By: Artigliomid floor flatssome other no-ducts MHRV options to consider in case ever needed:

Single Room heat recovery - damp air is continuously sucked out and its heat exchanged with fresh air that is sucked in

Decentralised heat recovery (or push-pull) - damp air is sucked out depositing its heat in a ceramic block - after a minute the fan reverses and sucks fresh air in that is warmed by the block.

Both are wall mounted eg in place of the kitchen or bathroom fan, they run continuously. No ducts required so less air resistance and lower power consumption than ducted MHRV. Removes the damp at source, and the resulting dry air circulates round the other rooms by diffusion.


Or two-room heat recovery - like a conventional MHRV, but extracting from just one room and supplying just one (other/same) room, eg mounted on the wall between them, so minimal ducts required.

All available from range of suppliers, range from cheap to bells-whistles.]]> http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17946&Focus=303209#Comment_303209 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17946&Focus=303209#Comment_303209 Mon, 11 Sep 2023 23:58:49 +0100 Jeff B
The landlord went to the expense of having a damp survey done but then refused to act on most of the recommendations. One of the recommendations was to install a PIV unit which the tenants were willing to use even after being told of the likely financial implications for them, as they were concerned about the health hazards with the current situation (especially for their youngest child who was 5 at the time). The recommendation was rejected on cost grounds.

The surveyor also recommended installing vents with a water vapour permeable membranes in them, (which I had never heard of) but looked like a good idea as none of the uPVC windows had trickle vents. (https://www.permagard.co.uk/perma-vent-standard).These were also rejected on the grounds of cost.

The inevitable result was black mould on the walls behind furniture, on the stairwell ceiling/coving and inside built-in wardrobes on clothes and shoes. There was no question of drying clothes indoors as the mum always used the line when the weather was ok as she was aware of the cost of using the tumble drier but of course she was forced to use the latter on wet days.

The family left the house a few months back as the landlord wanted to sell the house and sent them a Section 21 notice. It was a blessing in disguise. They had lived there for 5 years and took good care of the place, always paid the rent on time and hardly ever complained, despite the mould problem which the mum constantly battled with using bleach. I suspect their energy bills will drop significantly as the new house is smaller, of more modern construction and has PV solar. It also has gas for cooking rather than electric.

I have sympathy for landlords as, IMO, the rights of tenants have swung too far the other way which has prompted the mass sell-off of rental properties and led to large increases in rent due to lack of supply. I would never entertain the idea of becoming a landlord myself unless I was 100% sure that the tenant would take reasonable care of the property and not trash it and then do a runner!]]> http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17946&Focus=303210#Comment_303210 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17946&Focus=303210#Comment_303210 Tue, 12 Sep 2023 08:37:04 +0100 Artiglio
jeff - as with most things these days , the extremes dominate, the tiny percentage of bad landlords/ tenants getting a disproportionate amount of exposure and as a result leading to knee jerk additional legislation rather than pausing and asking why the existing rules aren’t enforced. But as it’s easier to create more offences than actually police the existing ones it’s the tool of choice for our leaders.
In the example you give the lack of extraction and an ability to provide ventialtion via the windows are basic failings that have negligible costs to put right ( the windows most likely had a nightlatch facility that would have been sufficient to offer ventilation in lieu of trickle vents, not ideal but workable) and no home should be rented without extraction in kitchen and bathrooms. A simple HHSRS inspection and improvement notice would have been the way forward. However these days overcrowdig is becoming ever more common, somewhat encouraged by the way the benefit system works and the failure of Local Housing Allowance to be increased with rental costs ( though the freeze is in some ways understandable as LHA effectively sets the floor for local rents and increasing it continually will only lead to endless increases year on year, until such time as we build enough property or manage population growth innthe country to match supply with demand). Those in receipt of LHA get payments linked to the number of bedrooms they are entitled to, but they can then rent smaller properties that are affordableto them, leading to overcrowding , which local authorities turn a blind eye to. The whole sector is a mess and it’d undoubtedly be far worse were it not for the unfavourable treatment residential property gets in respect of capital gains tax, this has resulted in quite a few landlords being effectively forced to remain in a sector they’d rather exit, reluctant landlords faced with ever increasing legislation and costs are hardly going to the most enthusiastic providers of housing.
It’s difficult to see how the country will put things right, and IF raac is found to have been used , to any significant degree ( though even a few % will be problematic) in the social housing sector , there’s a risk of the housing crisis spiralling out of control and costs even more so.
My local council was asked about raac in buildings it owns, the response was so full of weasel and wallpaper words that it suggests they have no idea and are frantically trying to find out.]]> http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17946&Focus=303212#Comment_303212 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17946&Focus=303212#Comment_303212 Tue, 12 Sep 2023 11:21:15 +0100 Simon Still
We have a climate and small homes with limited outside space which makes it difficult to dry clothes outdoors or have drying rooms that are properly ventilated. So many people are drying clothes on indoor drying racks or hanging on radiators.

Our MVHR is one of the biggest upgrades against previous homes. We're lucky enough to have a laundry/utility room with a 'sheila maid' dryer and the extract from that room to mvhr is overspecced. MVHR has its own humidity sensor and we have them in the bathrooms.

Ideally you'd have heat recovery ventilation/extraction whether single unit or multi room. But failing that if you're using extractors/PIV controlling it using some decent humidity monitors (ie not ones mounted on the extractor fans themselves which have been useless when I've tried them).

How about using some 'home automation' products to better monitor humidity and control extraction? eg https://www.shelly.com/en/products/shop/shelly-plus-h-and-t

If the problem is drying clothes then a heat pump condensing tumble dryer costs more up front but are cheap to run and dry clothes without impacting internal humidity of the house. If there's currently another type of dryer or none at all that might make a big difference

And lastly, what are the running costs and practicalities of Dehumidifiers? https://www.diy.com/departments/vonhaus-12l-day-dehumidifier-24-hr-timer-continuous-drainage-for-damp-condensation-laundry-drying-mould-smell-control/5056115707124_BQ.prd
If you assume the average UK house is leaky enough to for human healthy air changes but not to control humidity from washing etc would they not be a cost effective solution? They're removing the moisture from the air whilst retaining all the heat within the house - they all seem to have a tank but I don't see why they couldn't be plumbed into a drain like an MVHR unit.]]> http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17946&Focus=303214#Comment_303214 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17946&Focus=303214#Comment_303214 Tue, 12 Sep 2023 12:09:50 +0100 WillInAberdeen
Reasonably assuming that the landlord needs to recoup this cost from the tenant over the lifetime of the unit say 10 years, (so £400/y plus the labour and overheads) then from the tenant's perspective it's not going to save that much off utility bills and they would be better off with PIV or dMEV and paying for the extra ventilation heat loss

Eg 100m² home x 0.5ach x 2.4m ceilings x 1.2kg/m³ x 1 kJ/kgK x 24h/d x 2000HDD x £0.10/kWh ÷ 3600kJ/kWh
= £200/year]]> http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17946&Focus=303218#Comment_303218 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17946&Focus=303218#Comment_303218 Tue, 12 Sep 2023 13:30:58 +0100 Peter_in_Hungary
I don't remember there ever being a mould problem anywhere.

So what changed between then and now? Housing fabric, life style or a combination?]]> http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17946&Focus=303219#Comment_303219 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17946&Focus=303219#Comment_303219 Tue, 12 Sep 2023 13:34:38 +0100 Dominic Cooney http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17946&Focus=303227#Comment_303227 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17946&Focus=303227#Comment_303227 Tue, 12 Sep 2023 22:09:51 +0100 Jeff B
The irony was that as an enthusiastic IWI fan I was prepared to carry out some IWI installation myself (my labour would have been free!) but being just a support worker I had no authority to do any such thing. Also SWMBO had vetoed any such activity as it was not my responsibility.]]> http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17946&Focus=303228#Comment_303228 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17946&Focus=303228#Comment_303228 Tue, 12 Sep 2023 22:10:06 +0100 Jeff B Posted By: Peter_in_HungaryI remember as a child my mother doing the family washing in the kitchen with an open tub washing machine with a wringer mounted on the top and a sheila maid dryer mounted on the ceiling to do the drying. (The washing machine might have been a Goblin but I can't remember how the water was heated). All of this was done in the kitchen and I recall lots of condensation on the kitchen walls during and after the washing. I also remember waking up to frost on the INSIDE of the bedroom window. The house was a nothing special South London terraced.

I don't remember there ever being a mould problem anywhere.

So what changed between then and now? Housing fabric, life style or a combination?

We had coal fires back in the old days with significant draughts due to the "draw" of the fires - might that have helped provide ventilation?]]> http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17946&Focus=303229#Comment_303229 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17946&Focus=303229#Comment_303229 Tue, 12 Sep 2023 22:11:25 +0100 tony http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17946&Focus=303230#Comment_303230 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17946&Focus=303230#Comment_303230 Tue, 12 Sep 2023 22:12:32 +0100 Jeff B Posted By: tonyWIA - where do you 10p/kWh from!

Please let me know where I can get some too!]]> http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17946&Focus=303231#Comment_303231 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17946&Focus=303231#Comment_303231 Tue, 12 Sep 2023 22:33:37 +0100 WillInAberdeen ventilation **HEAT** loss How much do you pay for your heat ?

Mostly heat in homes comes from gas - price cap is currently 6.89p/kWh
Sometimes from oil - 8p/kWh
Sometimes from ASHP - 9p/kWh
Solar gains are free, direct electric more expensive, other options are available..!]]>