Green Building Forum - Amber Rudd

Amber Rudd

SteamyTea — Mon, 11 May 2015 17:03:59 +0100

She is our new Energy and Climate Change Secretary.
Does she have any experience in this area?

Amber Rudd

fostertom — Mon, 11 May 2015 17:13:03 +0100

They should have given Ed his old job back - he was good at that level

Amber Rudd

SteamyTea — Mon, 11 May 2015 17:19:36 +0100

Well Amber did find the extras for Four Weddings and a Funeral, which is kind if political talk.

Would that be the Ed that worked out the CfD? Cut FiTs (or was that the one with the nasty wife), failed yo get more turbines built.

Oh, and refused to go back on You and Yours about the RHI

Amber Rudd

wookey — Mon, 11 May 2015 21:58:06 +0100

Ms Rudd does at least have a reasonable understanding of climate change, so that's quite good. http://www.theguardian.com/environment/damian-carrington-blog/2015/may/11/amber-rudds-appointment-as-climate-secretary

Ed D was indeed a rather good Energy/CC minister (given his constraints). But he can't have his job back because he's no longer an MP.

Perhaps more significantly they've got rid of Pickles who was a strong force for evil.

Amber Rudd

fostertom — Tue, 12 May 2015 11:07:56 +0100

Posted By: wookeyEd D ... can't have his job back because he's no longer an MP

I meant Ed M

Amber Rudd

bella — Tue, 12 May 2015 11:25:59 +0100

So, have a think, assemble her a list (short, say five do-able things with a sentance on each) that could shift the frame on energy use/generation. No need to even mention climate change or the environment - they KNOW already. George O will be totally obsessed with reducing government expenditure so if the list requires spending there have to be savings to balance the books. If there is potential to reduce the UK's balance of payments (the proper reason for reducing government expenditure, even George knows that) so much the better. Reducing Tax on business will be another obsession worth bearing in mind. The items have to be such that a Tory Minister would feel comfortable talking about these in the tea room - not easy but with all your assembled knowledge and experience ------------- have a go. Your country needs you. If you can't do it no-one can.

Amber Rudd

gravelld — Tue, 12 May 2015 11:33:04 +0100

Talk of ECO grinding to a halt.

Personally I think ECO is completely unambitious anyway.

The housing stock needs sorting out, regardless of who lives where and who is on benefits and who isn't. And it needs doing soon (ish).

Amber Rudd

bella — Tue, 12 May 2015 12:07:00 +0100

OK,
1. In 5 years build 500,000 modest dwellings (1-3 bedrooms) that do not require heating, have PV on S facing roofs and can be built bought for less that Â£100,000 or part owned or rented. Probably small blocks of flats with EWI and shared gardens in currently run down brownfield sites or suburbs would be most suitable.

Amber Rudd

gravelld — Tue, 12 May 2015 12:14:57 +0100

That goes without saying! Although it probably does need saying given some loony ideas - http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/mar/02/david-cameron-plan-discounted-starter-homes-housing

It's the existing stock that is the problem. A strategy is needed. Give up on historic properties and upgrade the rest above and beyond? Or look to do what is possible on all dwellings?

Amber Rudd

SteamyTea — Tue, 12 May 2015 12:15:19 +0100

2: Scrap the RHI. Two reasons for this, air quality and to reduce the cost of installation.

Amber Rudd

mw116 — Tue, 12 May 2015 13:10:02 +0100

1) Make energy profligacy expensive - increase cost of energy the same way Stamp duty works (increases income, makes GO happy)

2) Look at carbon tariffs - we have to pay to generate carbon, anything imported should also pay for the carbon generated (increase income, makes GO happy)

3) Subsidise insulation at source (no fancy schemes, just reduce the price of the products, GO should be happy enough to allow this to happen...)

Amber Rudd

bella — Tue, 12 May 2015 13:13:53 +0100

Translating your thoughts (!) how about:-
2. Allow 5% (or zero) VAT on conversions/upgrades of existing buildings suitable for housing if floors/walls/roofs can insulated externally in a manner that eliminates heating need and if roofs are flat or South-ish facing and suitable for PV. For 5 years remove all Tax allowances for listed buildings unless the minister agrees exceptions (I wouldn't want the roof to fall in on St Pauls or Kings College Chapel for example!!)
3. Scrap the Renewable Heat Initiative. Two reasons for this, air quality and to reduce the cost of installation (needs no translation but may be?? just a short add-on to explain)

Amber Rudd

bella — Tue, 12 May 2015 13:17:28 +0100

mw 116, very good - I like those and style. We should emulate.

Amber Rudd

GarethC — Tue, 12 May 2015 13:35:05 +0100

Fun topic bella.

My tuppence: hold a competition asking for proposals for how to best meet or exceed UK emissions targets at lowest cost and hassle, with a prize of Â£1m for the winning proposal (or chunks thereof for sub proposals).

Like mw116's ideas. Not 100% sure about 3. Not sure the cost of materials is a big problem.

Don't agree about the RHI being scrapped. Greatly reformed, yes.

Think the green deal should be scrapped.

[P.S. with economist hat on, why the worry about the balance of payments bella?]

Amber Rudd

SteamyTea — Tue, 12 May 2015 13:49:14 +0100

Posted By: bellaneeds no translation but may be?? just a short add-on to explain

There is a problem with PM10s ,2.5s that can have serious health consequences. The current legislation does not take this into account (basically 50+ years old and was to protect London).
The RHI is a blanket scheme that seems to treat combustion and non combustion thermal technologies the same. So a HP, a ST are consider, CO2 wise, to be equal (or close to it). This is not the case. Scrapping the scheme would also reduce the administrative burden for installers, then just a case of 'doing the simple sums' to work out if a particular technology is worthwhile.

I though the GD was basically dead though lack of market demand.

Balance of payments is an odd one. It looks good to the treasuring if we export more than import, but if it is the other way around, then the money that is left in the country is worth same. Money is only the product of time and talent.

Amber Rudd

gravelld — Tue, 12 May 2015 14:24:39 +0100

Posted By: mw116
3) Subsidise insulation at source (no fancy schemes, just reduce the price of the products, GO should be happy enough to allow this to happen...)

Agree totally.

Amber Rudd

bella — Tue, 12 May 2015 14:42:14 +0100

Prefer not to sidetrack here into "what is money" and "balance of payments" but two points

Money, in my book, isn't that simple, pure means of exchange. Fortunes are being made with rubbish items that have a negative value (e.g. breakfast cereal laced with corn syrup, plastic bags for everything). And big fortunes (i.e. money) bring big influence inflating value. So I don't see that the value is the same whichever way the balance of payments goes. If it was true that money was just "time and talent" ....... well you see what I mean.

Amber Rudd

wookey — Tue, 12 May 2015 14:42:21 +0100

Not sure the cost of materials is a big problem.

I talked to a couple at the weekend who'd just renovated a family timber-framed bungalow in the sticks, who complained that they'd have been better-off knocking it down and starting again (even allowing for the joy of being in a caravan for a year) largely because of the 20% VAT on retrofit/5% new build.

That's not just materials - that's all costs. Perhaps that's what you meant?

Despite claiming to be keen to be green, they also ended up with an oil-boiler because they all the quotes they got for green solutions (heat pumps, log-boilers) were beyond their means. I suspect this was due to unreasonable expectations about 'payback', and I don't have details to check, but this is an example of real people who wanted to DTRT but couldn't because it was too expensive for them (and they've bought 25 acres with the house and it has a pool, so they are not _that_ skint).

Amber Rudd

bella — Tue, 12 May 2015 14:50:58 +0100

I don't know what "PM10s, 2.5s are". HP migh be read as Hewlett Packard and what is an "ST"? Might be good to have a moratorium on abbreviations whilst preparing a list for the minister? Being in the know is good but ----.

Amber Rudd

SteamyTea — Tue, 12 May 2015 15:04:39 +0100

PMs are Particulate Matter, the number after is the size in micron. You can't see these things, so they are not smoke (as we imagine it), but they can pass though the cell membranes and damage cells. They are very nasty. The WHO (World Health Organisation) says there is no safe limit.
HP is heat pump, so ASHP is an air source one, GSHP is a ground source one.
ST is Solar thermal, PV is Photovoltaic.

Amber Rudd

GarethC — Tue, 12 May 2015 15:48:56 +0100

That's not just materials - that's all costs. Perhaps that's what you meant?

That's it. Even if the cost of materials is very low, the labour costs are almost inevitably pretty high aren't they - I think the lion's share?

They should have bought an air to air... I'll shut up now.

Amber Rudd

Ed Davies — Tue, 12 May 2015 16:22:11 +0100

1) Full-rate VAT on domestic energy.

2) Spend the proceeds from (1) on improving the current housing stock, particularly that of the less well off via grants, cheap loans, etc.

3) Carbon tax.

4) Spend the proceeds from (3) on improving the current housing stock, particularly that of the less well off via grants, cheap loans, etc.

Amber Rudd

Ed Davies — Tue, 12 May 2015 16:24:16 +0100

Posted By: wookeyâ€¦largely because of the 20% VAT on retrofit/5% new build.

It's 0% on new build for most stuff. 5% is for retrofit of something which hasn't been inhabitable for 5 years or something like that - can't remember the details.

Amber Rudd

mw116 — Tue, 12 May 2015 16:51:46 +0100

No, I do mean materials cost - I'm in the process of upgrading / renovating our new home (target date of when the baby's due - this was a long time away; it's now very close...) which is a Victorian (or possibly earlier) detached villa, so big rooms, and lots of heat loss paths. As we're doing the work ourselves, the biggest costs so far have been the insulation - upwards of #600 for the kitchen and dining room floors, and looking at the cost of loft insulation roll these days, it really is off putting to put more than the minimum in (luckily I still have the rolls I got on the #3 a roll offers back in the good old days!) given the demands of getting baby stuff...

4) Bring back the conservatory 'tax' again.

Amber Rudd

GarethC — Tue, 12 May 2015 18:16:05 +0100

Â£600 each for kitchen and dining room floor? Certainly makes a mockery of Energy Saving Trust estimates for floor insulation costs (which are nonsense)! How did you do it?

Amber Rudd

skyewright — Tue, 12 May 2015 18:37:29 +0100

Posted By: mw116
4) Bring back the conservatory 'tax' again.

On what basis?
Our (unheated, of course) conservatories (front & back) significantly reduce our household energy requirement. We have barely required any heating since mid April, even though we are still well into HDD12 territory (up here. at least).

Amber Rudd

bella — Tue, 12 May 2015 19:03:53 +0100

If you are going to write to the minister with your list (and I think you should) the background facts MUST be correct so that no errors/misjudgements creep into the list. If there was agreement would you be happy with GBF as the source or contributors to GBF or names? I am happy to act as your devoted secretary and draft a letter and list for you to chew on. Nothing contoversial and v. polite. Suggest we leave out any areas of disagreement - there is enough to list where total unanimity reigns I am sure. Keith and Tony are you with this - yours to veto if not.

On the matter of insulation and VAT - HMRC 3 years ago (?changes). If I buy insulation it is 20%. If a VAT Registered builder buys insulation and installs in existing house it is 5% for both including on the things like skirting boards and decoration for IWI and crumbling pebble dash off, render, insulation layer, render or rain screen. New and listed building are zero VAT anyway. IS THIS CORRECT?

Amber Rudd

Triassic — Tue, 12 May 2015 19:28:37 +0100

Stop all this obsessing about London and the SE, accept Britain is a diverse entity, make sure Government and business are incentivised to open departments and businesses outside London. This reduces travel, stops all this house price nonsense and balances population across the UK.

Amber Rudd

SteamyTea — Tue, 12 May 2015 22:00:31 +0100

I am with Ed's 1 and 3, price is a great driver for change.

Amber Rudd

CWatters — Tue, 12 May 2015 23:49:38 +0100

I reckon one way to encourage people to insulate existing houses would be to impose a tax on any capital gain they make when selling unless they upgrade the property.

In theory upgrading should improve the value of the house so they should get more for it and avoid most of the cost hit.

Clearly that won't always happen/work but grants could be made available funded by those that pay the capital gain tax.

Some detail to sort out but I think that might work.