Green Building Forum - Rishi Sunak scraps home energy efficiency taskforce

Rishi Sunak scraps home energy efficiency taskforce

bhommels — Sat, 23 Sep 2023 14:08:37 +0100

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-66900999

Rishi Sunak scraps home energy efficiency taskforce

djh — Sat, 23 Sep 2023 20:40:32 +0100

Interesting discussion on my local socials today about heatpumps, EV chargers and all the rest. One case was a chap who presently uses an oil boiler (no gas) and who looked into a heat pump. He currently has a 60 A connection and was told he needed bigger, so he asked. He has to pay for new overhead cables from the nearest transformer and underground cables in his property. Then because the transformer is fully loaded, he has to buy a new transformer as well. At that point the number of zeros on the bill was somewhat greater than he was comfortable with, so he's getting a new oil boiler. Other commentators mentioned being in listed buildings, meaning restrictions on double glazing, on new radiators, on holes for heat pump pipes etc etc. So lots for Rishi to think about.

Rishi Sunak scraps home energy efficiency taskforce

jms452 — Sun, 24 Sep 2023 15:21:55 +0100

Posted By: djhInteresting discussion on my local socials today about heatpumps, EV chargers and all the rest. One case was a chap who presently uses an oil boiler (no gas) and who looked into a heat pump. He currently has a 60 A connection and was told he needed bigger, so he asked. He has to pay for new overhead cables from the nearest transformer and underground cables in his property. Then because the transformer is fully loaded, he has to buy a new transformer as well. At that point the number of zeros on the bill was somewhat greater than he was comfortable with, so he's getting a new oil boiler. Other commentators mentioned being in listed buildings, meaning restrictions on double glazing, on new radiators, on holes for heat pump pipes etc etc. So lots for Rishi to think about.

How much insulation does he need to put in to drop the heat demand enough that 60A is fine?

Where there's a really quaint old village of picturesque 400 year old houses this approach seems nice although the first off was fairly pricy:

https://www.cambridgeshire.gov.uk/residents/climate-change-energy-and-environment/climate-change-action/low-carbon-energy/community-heating/swaffham-prior-heat-network/about-swaffham-priors-heat-network

Rishi Sunak scraps home energy efficiency taskforce

WillInAberdeen — Sun, 24 Sep 2023 16:19:39 +0100

Some of you know this guy
https://twitter.com/glynhudson/status/1689667813932249088
"Here's an example in my house which is fully electrified: ASHP, 2x EV, Battery storage, Induction hob etc, even on the peak day in winter max current was 50A (11.5kW) and that was only for a short period"

People seem to over think the amount of electricity needed for Air Source heating (the clue is in the name!) or the amount of electricity to charge a car for the national average daily mileage.

If there is enough amps to run a 3kW kettle or immersion, then there's enough for a 10kW heatpump, or a 3kW car charger. Maybe not all at once, but that's not usually a problem.

Rishi Sunak scraps home energy efficiency taskforce

Artiglio — Sun, 24 Sep 2023 16:58:56 +0100

WIA, from my experience ( i looked into ground source for my place) suppliers/installers like to work with a significant safety margin in terms of the amount of heat they expect to provide and the electric demands the home as a whole may have, so the homeowner is pushed towards upgrades and improvements as part of the new heating system, without them you start getting caveats from the supplier about performance, no one wants to make significant investment and find it doesnâ€™t work but then finds the upgrades make things totally unviable financially.

I gave up and went with gas, iâ€™ll sit back and wait for the market to evolve and learn what does and doesâ€™nt work and look at things again in about 10 years.

As for Sunaks announcement last week, it was really no surprise and pretty much in line with my comments in another thread about the private rented sector.

Currently thereâ€™s way too much fresh air between what is technically possible, the countries ability to physically do the work (in terms of suitably trained and experienced companies and workforce) and the ability of the end user to pay for the works ( especially in light of the distortions in the market from the various grants and schemes).

For myself and a good number in my peer group, having enough rainy day money to pay for a new hip (and avoid years of pain and curtailed quality of life, whilst waiting for the nhs to do what they should) is way higher up the list than spending the money chasing net zero.

Rishi Sunak scraps home energy efficiency taskforce

djh — Sun, 24 Sep 2023 17:29:27 +0100

Posted By: jms452How much insulation does he need to put in to drop the heat demand enough that 60A is fine?

Dunno. IIRC his house is 3000 sq ft and he already has some insulation. I don't think his was one of the listed ones. I just deleted my account from that site; there was just too much nonsense on it.

The item did prompt me to add up the major hardwired loads in our system and I think they come to around 125 A on our 100 A circuit. Then we have a load of hairdryers and things that we can plug in to the ring mains if we really want to blow the main fuse. In reality the biggest load we've had is the 32 A car charger plus 13 A immersion plus 8 A space heating all at once overnight. So 53 A or so for up to the two hours the immersion is on. The other big block of power consumers are in the kitchen, but they get used during the day rather than overnight and generally for fairly short times and not all at once.

Yes, I agree that the Swaffham Prior scheme is good idea. I suspect it requires a certain concentration of listed properties though, not too mention some enthusiastic support. In our village we live next to a listed place and there's a few more scattered around, but most of the houses are either inter-war council bungalows or a 1970s estate. When we put in our planning application with a barrel-vaulted aluminium roof, I had lots of photos of the ugly 'local vernacular' to show them if they wanted If there's ever any interest in such things around here, it's a great example to have.

Rishi Sunak scraps home energy efficiency taskforce

revor — Sun, 24 Sep 2023 19:41:52 +0100

For me the issue I see, is not if you are going to have so much of a load on a particular premises, ( though I guess the diversity calculation may change negatively) as the capacity of the grid to replace all of the energy that will be required to replace the loss of gas, oil, petrol, diesel etc, that is one heck of a lot of energy that the grid needs to supply. I have grid poles in my fields and SP often come to service equipment. Talking to a supervisor (don't know what level he was) a little while ago he could not see things improving soon. Considerable investment was recognised and needed but waiting for the government to take the initiative. The parent company in Spain was unlikely to invest and his cynical view was after the UK tax payer had paid for the upgrades owner Iberdrola (of which Qatar Investment Authority is a major shareholder) would keep taking the profits. Bit worrying if that is the view of an employee but then he is an UK taxpayer.
We have an 80A supply. When we were building I wanted our existing overhead supply to go underground. The surveyor suggested as we had 3P going to our farm outbuildings we could have 3P to the house. (Forgot the cost but it was a lot) My reply was that the idea of doing the work we planned was to decrease our energy consumption (which we have) not to use more.

Rishi Sunak scraps home energy efficiency taskforce

WillInAberdeen — Sun, 24 Sep 2023 20:20:37 +0100

>>"to replace the loss of gas, oil, petrol, diesel etc"

Think the point is not to replace those, or at least not so much.

For heating, use a heat pump which sources 70% of the heat from the air, then we only have to transmit 30% as much electricity as the present amount of gas.

Likewise electric vehicles are vastly more efficient than petrol/diesel, which dump 80% of their fuel straight out of their exhaust pipes as heat (and all the rest out through their brake pads). Just transmit the useful 20% as electricity and charge the car at different times of day from the heating, then minimal extra distribution capacity is needed.

>>>â€32 A car charger plus 13 A immersion plus 8 A space heating all at once overnightâ€

Economics aside, the 13A immersion and 8A space heating could both be replaced by a 6A heatpump (or less, if you could find one smaller). The average driver could get their car fully recharged at 3A overnight, when their heating isn't running.

Certain groups of people have stirred up unnecessary concerns about electricity supply, to detract from net zero etc, or preserve the gas industry. But they should really be more worried about 40A cookers and hot tubs, and shifting demand to match intermittent supply.

>>"suppliers/installers like to work with a significant safety marginâ€

Yes, that's my experience too. The MCS needs a rethink I think.

Rishi Sunak scraps home energy efficiency taskforce

Peter_in_Hungary — Sun, 24 Sep 2023 20:41:13 +0100

IMO diversifying a households load to avoid power hungry (even if intermittent) devices coming on together to avoid overloading the main fuse is a big ask for most households.
People will want to switch on what they want when they want it. Topping up the EV nightly on a granny charger is going to be too much hassle, once a week plug it in when you get home from work to the 22A charger, go inside, put on the washing machine and the electric hob for supper - all done by 21:00 and never mind the grid. I'm not sure that financial incentives will change things much but I don't know what would.

Rishi Sunak scraps home energy efficiency taskforce

WillInAberdeen — Sun, 24 Sep 2023 21:03:49 +0100

True, but the implication there is that we will have to keep burning fossils for the next 100+ years, so that nobody experiences any inconvenience or change!

The solution is probably that all EV chargers (by UK law) now have to be 'smart' so they charge overnight by default and can be modulated up/down to fit peaks/troughs with no effort required by the householder. Wouldn't take much to do the same with heatpumps (or even washing machines!)

At some point V2H and/or home batteries will become useful, so people can turn on all their intermittent loads. The experience with E7 was actually many people are willing to store energy at lower prices.

The people who who have to deliver this in UK are National Grid, who seem pretty confident it's going to work and is progressing ahead of the 2035 target. Their main concern isn't any problems with supply, more that the public will fail to electrify fast enough and there won't be enough demand! Rishi hasn't helped with that...
https://www.nationalgrideso.com/document/283101/download

Rishi Sunak scraps home energy efficiency taskforce

djh — Sun, 24 Sep 2023 22:09:40 +0100

Posted By: revorFor me the issue I see, is not if you are going to have so much of a load on a particular premises

But that issue is just as real as the bigger issue I believe. There are a lot of people who as things are can't go all electric without an upgrade to the cables supplying them. So either the rules on how systems are sized need to change or maybe the financing rules need to change, or something else needs to change, but at present there's a real problem.

And sure there'll be a problem supplying enough power overall as well. The privatised infrastructure is a dumb idea.

Rishi Sunak scraps home energy efficiency taskforce

djh — Sun, 24 Sep 2023 22:22:32 +0100

Posted By: WillInAberdeenEconomics aside, the 13A immersion and 8A space heating could both be replaced by a 6A heatpump (or less, if you could find one smaller).

It's not just economics, though economics is a real showstopping issue in itself. AIUI I'd have to make major changes to my heating and DHW systems, so significant disruption.

The average driver could get their car fully recharged at 3A overnight, when their heating isn't running.

Only if I was willing to charge my car every day. And if I was still working I wouldn't have been able to get enough charge for the commute. Overnight is the ONLY time I run my space heating - why should I use and pay for expensive day time electricity?

What's wrong with a 40 A hob, BTW? That's what it takes to heat things.

Posted By: Peter_in_HungaryTopping up the EV nightly on a granny charger is going to be too much hassle, once a week plug it in when you get home from work to the 22A charger

I agree about the granny charger, but all chargers sold today are capable of reducing their charge rates under automatic control from the network so I expect that control will get used more as more EVs are bought.

National Grid will find out if their plans survive reality in the fullness of time. They've managed to unite almost everybody to oppose their plans in this part of the country.

Rishi Sunak scraps home energy efficiency taskforce

WillInAberdeen — Sun, 24 Sep 2023 22:46:57 +0100

As part of Rishi's speech he announced new powers to fast track grid infrastructure projects through planning (which I guess are aimed at your part of the country!).

Nothing wrong with 40A cookers, I have one on a 32A MCB which has never tripped, because the rings and oven all modulate*. Was just an example, to show why the 60A cutout man was worried about the wrong appliance, if he thinks he doesn't have enough amps for a heatpump.

Most people don't commute long distance every day any more, average UK car does 20 miles a day (~5kWh). Plenty of time to fit that round the heating in the off-peak period.

Actually I should say "off-peak" not "overnight", because cheapest electricity prices have frequently been mid afternoons this year, not just overnight. Today's cheapest was at 1430.(edit: and it was greenest in the afternoon, lots of PV and wind, >90% non-fossil electricity)

*Edit to add - and because fuses/MCBs/cables have a time-adjusted current rating. A 60A main fuse can carry 70-90A for long enough to cook the dinner and charge up the car. Graphs in the various BS docs.

Rishi Sunak scraps home energy efficiency taskforce

philedge — Mon, 25 Sep 2023 10:32:20 +0100

With us adding extra PV our DNO decided to upgrade our supply transformer earlier this year. I was told the old one was a 5kva unit which had survived a household with young kids and electric cooking for over 20 years. Id never noticed it smoking or steaming in the rain but it must have earned its keep.

For the last year weve had a power hungry hob and 2x 3kw ovens on their own small consumer unit all fed from a 40amp supply. Never had anything trip so I guess diversity plays a big part in keeping the lights on and likely, with a bit of management/consideration, a 60 amp supply would be more than adequate for most houses with a heat pump, EV and electric cooking

Rishi Sunak scraps home energy efficiency taskforce

WillInAberdeen — Mon, 25 Sep 2023 11:00:15 +0100

Mike1 mentioned on the similar thread that 30A supplies are common in France (60A max) and they are installing 10x more heatpumps than in the UK.

Physics is the same on both sides of the channel, so istm the problem here is psychology!

Rishi Sunak scraps home energy efficiency taskforce

djh — Mon, 25 Sep 2023 12:11:03 +0100

Posted By: WillInAberdeenPhysics is the same on both sides of the channel, so istm the problem here is psychology!

No the problem here is vested interests and incompetent bureaucrats & politicians.

According to https://www.frenchentree.com/french-property/owning-property/electricity-in-france/ "The power setting is usually shown on your meter (compteur), and possible ratings are 3, 6, 9, 12, 15, 18, 24, 30, and 36 kVA." So up to 150 A. Although it appears later in the document that supplies are 3-phase, so a restriction to 60 A would be approximately equivalent to a UK 180 A rating. (modulo different voltages in practice)

Rishi Sunak scraps home energy efficiency taskforce

WillInAberdeen — Mon, 25 Sep 2023 12:55:13 +0100

Here's what Mike1 said

"[a 60amp fuse is] a typical connection for an electrically heated house in France - the maximum monophase connection offered, I think. For those on gas, it's typically 30A. Around 70% of all domestic properties, including apartments, have a 30A connection.

That's low compared to the UK for 2 reasons:
- the power chosen determines the standing charge, so there's an incentive to keep it low (a 60A connection costs in the region of â‚¬19/month, 30A around â‚¬12.50, down to â‚¬9.25 for the minimum 15A supply)
- a load-shedder can be fitted to the consumer unit that temporarily disconnects one or more selected low-priority loads (water heating, central heating, washing machine, etc.) if the total load approaches the maximum - for example while fully using an electric hob.â€

http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17951&Focus=303297#Comment_303297

Rishi Sunak scraps home energy efficiency taskforce

RobL — Mon, 25 Sep 2023 16:04:30 +0100

In contrast UKPN upgraded our supply from 60A (15kVA) to 100A (24kVA) for no charge. We actually have it pretty good here - all the elec we want, when we want it. I can't remember the last time we had a power cut in Cambridge.
Perhaps we could learn from France though - a bit more willingness to adapt to the available renewables supply would save the country a heap of cash.