Green Building Forum - 1800's Stone Cottage Renovation Tue, 19 Dec 2023 04:57:24 +0000 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/ Lussumo Vanilla 1.0.3 1800's Stone Cottage Renovation http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16373&Focus=277605#Comment_277605 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16373&Focus=277605#Comment_277605 Sat, 28 Dec 2019 18:00:41 +0000 rosecottage
We have recently purchased a solid stone detached cottage in the East of England. All planning has gone through and the more we searched for information (this is very much a self DIY project), the more the forum kept popping up so we took the plunge and joined!

The original cottage was extended and doubled in size around the 60's with again, solid brick. It is currently rendered, but removing internal plaster and wood cladding (lovely 70's ski chalet look) it is consisted mainly of brick but one wall (internal now, originally external) is mainly flint in construction. Needless to say there isn't a spot of insulation anywhere, thought we have discovered the roof is straw clad.

Scaffold is up and we are starting on the roof tomorrow, the current idea and thoughts are:
- Above Rafters Insulation (we are opening up the eaves on the inside and there are some lovely hand cut purlins which we would like to keep visible)
- EWI (likely later in the summer)
- Underfloor

We will also be converting the existing attached garage and we will finish up sorting an old flint outbuilding at some point.

I am sure we will be posting many questions to gain feedback and thoughts, so please do throw in any!!

Thank you]]> 1800's Stone Cottage Renovation http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16373&Focus=277606#Comment_277606 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16373&Focus=277606#Comment_277606 Sat, 28 Dec 2019 18:03:41 +0000 rosecottage 1800's Stone Cottage Renovation http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16373&Focus=277609#Comment_277609 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16373&Focus=277609#Comment_277609 Sun, 29 Dec 2019 11:52:04 +0000 jfb Tony will be along soon to say "no less than 200mm EWI"!]]> 1800's Stone Cottage Renovation http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16373&Focus=277613#Comment_277613 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16373&Focus=277613#Comment_277613 Sun, 29 Dec 2019 16:28:30 +0000 rosecottage Posted By: jfbSounds like a great project. If roofin is happening soon and EWI is in the pipeline (best method to insulate if you can) make sure you account for the EWI at eaeves/verges. They will overhang an extra amount equal to the EWI buildup. This may coincide with the over rafter insulation. Presumably you will have rafter, insulation, counter batten, roofing batten so by the time the counter battens extend over the walls to the original eaves height this creates a space for EWI. Just needs careful calculation as to depths of insulation bein used.
Tony will be along soon to say "no less than 200mm EWI"!

Exactly that, I was hoping the existing rafters would overhang the wall plate a little to enable an easy fixing for a small extension but they don't at all so at the moment I am trying to work out the best way to achieve the extra on the eaves.

Currently the verge / gable is flush to the wall, so again I need a solution for this - probably notched and ladder in style? Will probably start another thread on those for more detail.

Thank you

P.S. will struggle for 200mm!!]]> 1800's Stone Cottage Renovation http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16373&Focus=277616#Comment_277616 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16373&Focus=277616#Comment_277616 Sun, 29 Dec 2019 18:15:49 +0000 Nick Parsons
''P.S. will struggle for 200mm!! ''

150?]]> 1800's Stone Cottage Renovation http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16373&Focus=277618#Comment_277618 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16373&Focus=277618#Comment_277618 Sun, 29 Dec 2019 18:57:31 +0000 djh
Posted By: rosecottageThe original cottage was extended and doubled in size around the 60's with again, solid brick.

1960s? I'm surprised solid wall was legal, but I've no real idea. Then again I always think flush verges and no eaves overhang is fairly modern, so what do I know?

It sounds like you've got the right idea with EWI and above rafter insulation. You can extend the eaves with sprockets as others have mentioned, though you'll lose height at the top of the windows unless you have planned for it. What's the issue with 200 mm EWI? At some thickness of insulation, you won't need UFH.

You say planning is already done. What ridge height increase have you permitted?

Where were/are you planning an extension? It looks like the other side of the building has already been extended. Whereabouts are you? I'd say starting work and then joining this forum is perhaps not the ideal order :confused:]]> 1800's Stone Cottage Renovation http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16373&Focus=277619#Comment_277619 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16373&Focus=277619#Comment_277619 Sun, 29 Dec 2019 19:57:17 +0000 rosecottage Posted By: Nick ParsonsSprockets ('kick-ups'), which give the lower end of the roof a shallower pitch. We did that on a house a couple of years ago.


Thanks, whilst I had seen this on an image with tiles I couldn't find the name - do you know if there is a pitch change recommendation or maximum?

Posted By: Nick Parsons
150?


    Yes, I think we should get 150.]]>     1800's Stone Cottage Renovation http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16373&Focus=277620#Comment_277620 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16373&Focus=277620#Comment_277620 Sun, 29 Dec 2019 20:03:18 +0000 rosecottage Posted By: djhIt sounds like you've got the right idea with EWI and above rafter insulation. You can extend the eaves with sprockets as others have mentioned, though you'll lose height at the top of the windows unless you have planned for it. What's the issue with 200 mm EWI? At some thickness of insulation, you won't need UFH.


    I think with a sprocket the window issue may be solved, I will need to check tomorrow. That was also one of the reasons for not heading towards 200 EWI as the extra eaves would impact windows (and they are already very low within the room).

    Posted By: djhYou say planning is already done. What ridge height increase have you permitted?

    Where were/are you planning an extension? It looks like the other side of the building has already been extended.


    I need to check the additional ridge height when I get home, I believe it was 200mm. The extension is single storey, again on the rear of the existing extension (that flat roof will be pulled in to the main roof with a low pitch).

    Posted By: djhI'd say starting work and then joining this forum is perhaps not the ideal orderhttp:///newforum/extensions/Vanillacons/smilies/standard/confused.gif" alt=":confused:" title=":confused:" >


    May be, but hindsight is a wonderful thing! I only found it whilst searching for building issue solutions around eaves. Not heard of it before then.]]>     1800's Stone Cottage Renovation http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16373&Focus=277627#Comment_277627 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16373&Focus=277627#Comment_277627 Mon, 30 Dec 2019 12:40:08 +0000 fostertom
    The existing rafters are not extended; instead sheathed over with 11mm OSB3, and 150mm of EPS insulation laid over the top of that. 100 blown-in cellulose insulation between the rafters, so 250mm overall.

    Nearest the eaves, the insulation is 100mm on top of 50mm, and 100x75 douglas fir 'dummy' or stub rafter are fixed within the 100mm zone. So the rafter extending is done in a higher plane than the existing structural rafters.]]>     1800's Stone Cottage Renovation http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16373&Focus=277628#Comment_277628 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16373&Focus=277628#Comment_277628 Mon, 30 Dec 2019 12:44:26 +0000 fostertom 1800's Stone Cottage Renovation http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16373&Focus=277629#Comment_277629 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16373&Focus=277629#Comment_277629 Mon, 30 Dec 2019 12:47:42 +0000 fostertom 1800's Stone Cottage Renovation http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16373&Focus=277630#Comment_277630 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16373&Focus=277630#Comment_277630 Mon, 30 Dec 2019 12:50:01 +0000 fostertom
    The dark coloured piece, fixed up to the underside of the rafters, is ready for vertical cladding battens to be fixed to it, to suspend timber cladding from above, because it's useless to fix the battens by long screws thro such thick EWI. That's not necessary if the 'cladding' is to be acrylic render direct on the EPS EWI.]]>     1800's Stone Cottage Renovation http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16373&Focus=277634#Comment_277634 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16373&Focus=277634#Comment_277634 Mon, 30 Dec 2019 16:31:01 +0000 Pile-o-Stone 1800's Stone Cottage Renovation http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16373&Focus=277638#Comment_277638 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16373&Focus=277638#Comment_277638 Mon, 30 Dec 2019 17:49:34 +0000 fostertom
    This lovely classic cottage (with church in background) wd look incomparably more handsome with good overhanging eaves and verges, and that horrible hard render covered up with EWI. The corbel can be easily re-created in EPS, rendered, 200-250mm further out. Attached is similar work in progress - the band course and cills on the left have beebn created in that way.

    Sadly, on this house, eaves and verge were already overhanging, but were lost because the budget didn't extend to re-roofing/extending the existing welsh slate roof.

    On yours, because the roof surface has been raised by the thickness of EPS over the rafter tops, the eave should end up no lower than existing, even tho projected outward.]]>     1800's Stone Cottage Renovation http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16373&Focus=277642#Comment_277642 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16373&Focus=277642#Comment_277642 Mon, 30 Dec 2019 19:26:10 +0000 rosecottage Posted By: fostertomAnd the eave finishing-off, looking upward, awaiting the wall EWI. It's untreated 'semi durable' sawn green local douglas fir - weathers beautifully.

    The dark coloured piece, fixed up to the underside of the rafters, is ready for vertical cladding battens to be fixed to it, to suspend timber cladding from above, because it's useless to fix the battens by long screws thro such thick EWI. That's not necessary if the 'cladding' is to be acrylic render direct on the EPS EWI.
      http:///newforum/extensions/InlineImages/image.php?AttachmentID=7461" alt="2011-08-19 040med.jpg" >


    Thank you, super useful and I think an osb board base may help to make both verge and eaves increase easier and a little more stable. Did that continue across the whole roof? Did you finish the inside of that with a vapour layer? Or was it not needed? Thanks]]>     1800's Stone Cottage Renovation http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16373&Focus=277643#Comment_277643 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16373&Focus=277643#Comment_277643 Mon, 30 Dec 2019 19:27:58 +0000 rosecottage Posted By: Pile-o-StoneWhile you have your scaffold up, and if you have the cash, I’d be fitting roof integrated solar PV panels. They look better than those that sit on the roof like a hat and they will release some of the existing roof tiles for you to use if you extend the eves of the roof to cover the EWI.

    To be honest solar isn't something we have even considered due to costs right now, I haven't looked in great detail but just don't think our budget will stretch.

    The rear of the original apex will become double the size in pitch, so we will need replacement tiles or new for one aspect anyway. Thanks]]>     1800's Stone Cottage Renovation http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16373&Focus=277645#Comment_277645 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16373&Focus=277645#Comment_277645 Mon, 30 Dec 2019 19:37:08 +0000 rosecottage Posted By: fostertomIf those are clay pantiles, likely the need to re-roof is because they're old and many failing? Then it'd be a question of encouraging rosecottage to source genuine reclaimed replacements - then yes use flashed-in integrated (not sit-on) panels as the way to need less to buy.

    This lovely classic cottage (with church in background) wd look incomparably more handsome with good overhanging eaves and verges, and that horrible hard render covered up with EWI. The corbel can be easily re-created in EPS, rendered, 200-250mm further out. Attached is similar work in progress - the band course and cills on the left have beebn created in that way.

    Sadly, on this house, eaves and verge were already overhanging, but were lost because the budget didn't extend to re-roofing/extending the existing welsh slate roof.

    On yours, because the roof surface has been raised by the thickness of EPS over the rafter tops, the eave should end up no lower than existing, even tho projected outward.
      http:///newforum/extensions/InlineImages/image.php?AttachmentID=7462" alt="2011-04-19 164med.jpg" >


    The pantiles are actually very good and we are currently hunting for matches (tuileries du nord if anyone knows of any!). The image you have attached is spooky as it is so like ours. I agree on the extended eaves, however with flush gable chimneys either end (one will be removed and replaced with a grp though), in my mind I think the gable end may look out of place with the verge.]]>     1800's Stone Cottage Renovation http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16373&Focus=277648#Comment_277648 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16373&Focus=277648#Comment_277648 Tue, 31 Dec 2019 09:53:57 +0000 fostertom Posted By: rosecottageDid you finish the inside of that with a vapour layer? Or was it not needed?This buildup:

    Rafters;
    11mm OSB3 glued and screwed seamless over the rafters and uniting with any wall ditto, as airtight layer but vapour breatheable;
    Plasterboard and skim on rafters' underside, can be punctured e.g. by electricians because not a vapour barrier;
    Vapour permeable insulation between the rafters e.g. blown-in cellulose (a bit expensive but because it fills all gaps so completely that it eliminates convection losses, actually gives best fill-type insulation for the money), also acts a supplementary 'in depth' airtight layer;
    White or grey EPS (best board-type insulation for the money, and vapour permeable, unlike any of the foamed plastic insulations) glued on top of the OSB3, tightly butted and uniting with any wall EWI - grey gives best insulation for the money but is hard to cut with a hot wire;
    Expanding foam injected with long nozzle to fill all the EPS butt joints, to eliminate convection losses;
    Breather felt;
    Down-slope battening;
    Tiles on battens:

    is a 'breathing' construction and needs no vapour barrier, in fact performs best without any vapour barrier.

    250 thick insulation overall, so if you have 4" deep rafters with 100mm insulation between, make the EPS on top 150mm thick. Don't skimp on thickness, while you're at it (even go to 300mm) as the cost of a bit more thickness is small, while the labour remains same.]]>     1800's Stone Cottage Renovation http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16373&Focus=277665#Comment_277665 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16373&Focus=277665#Comment_277665 Thu, 02 Jan 2020 11:41:08 +0000 rosecottage Posted By: fostertom
    Posted By: rosecottageDid you finish the inside of that with a vapour layer? Or was it not needed?
    This buildup:

    Rafters;
    11mm OSB3 glued and screwed seamless over the rafters and uniting with any wall ditto, as airtight layer but vapour breatheable;
    Plasterboard and skim on rafters' underside, can be punctured e.g. by electricians because not a vapour barrier;
    Vapour permeable insulation between the rafters e.g. blown-in cellulose (a bit expensive but because it fills all gaps so completely that it eliminates convection losses, actually gives best fill-type insulation for the money), also acts a supplementary 'in depth' airtight layer;
    White or grey EPS (best board-type insulation for the money, and vapour permeable, unlike any of the foamed plastic insulations) glued on top of the OSB3, tightly butted and uniting with any wall EWI - grey gives best insulation for the money but is hard to cut with a hot wire;
    Expanding foam injected with long nozzle to fill all the EPS butt joints, to eliminate convection losses;
    Breather felt;
    Down-slope battening;
    Tiles on battens:

    is a 'breathing' construction and needs no vapour barrier, in fact performs best without any vapour barrier.

    250 thick insulation overall, so if you have 4" deep rafters with 100mm insulation between, make the EPS on top 150mm thick. Don't skimp on thickness, while you're at it (even go to 300mm) as the cost of a bit more thickness is small, while the labour remains same.

    Thanks Tom, interesting to see your cross section there.]]>