Green Building Forum - Fluorescents versus LEDs?

Fluorescents versus LEDs?

djh — Sat, 08 Aug 2020 23:12:45 +0100

We light our kitchen using six fluorescent fittings surface-mounted on the ceiling. They use T5 tubes, Sylvania FHE 21W/T5/840 ( https://www.sylvania-lighting.com/product/en-gb/products/0002680/ ) and the fittings are designed for installation under cupboards, but serve us well. We normally use just five fittings, leaving one turned off. I just replaced a tube, the last in a batch of spares I had, and thought perhaps it might be time to consider replacing the fittings with 'better' LED ones.

But I haven't yet found a suitable candidate and would appreciate any other thoughts. I've looked at a few LED battens and LED panels. The main obstacle seems to be efficiency; the fluorescent tubes consume 21 W and produce 1900 lumens and I haven't found anything comparable in LED fittings. Also the CRI is 85 whilst LED products seem to be quoted as 80+; I don't know whether that makes much difference.

Fluorescents versus LEDs?

CWatters — Sun, 09 Aug 2020 17:10:36 +0100

How big is your kitchen?

1900 * 5 = 9500 Lumens. Were using GU10 LEDs which produce about 400 Lumens each on a grid that is a bit less than 1m. Your existing lights would be equivalent to about 24 of the lights we are using.

Some LED panels here claim 3600 Lumens from 40W and 4500 Lumens from 50W but i've not used them..

https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Main_Index/Lighting_Menu_Index/LEDlite_Modulars/index.html?ad_position=&source=adwords&ad_id=234538261172&placement=&kw=led%20panel%20lights&network=g&matchtype=b&ad_type=&product_id=&product_partition_id=&campaign=ROAS_LED_Lighting&version=finalurl_v3&gclid=Cj0KCQjwvb75BRD1ARIsAP6LcqvFx9kjF4ueuBUvv-n9-j97GIZ6h-9jwFDzNqHxafH_vKUcULNRs4MaAv2xEALw_wcB

Fluorescents versus LEDs?

Peter_in_Hungary — Sun, 09 Aug 2020 18:59:26 +0100

Posted By: djhBut I haven't yet found a suitable candidate and would appreciate any other thoughts. I've looked at a few LED battens and LED panels. The main obstacle seems to be efficiency; the fluorescent tubes consume 21 W and produce 1900 lumens

Why change them? OK look around to see if the market place has improved - but it looks like it hasn't, You are getting 90lm/W which is up there at the top of the available lights and the tubes are still available so if you are happy with them IMO it's not worth changing, just get new tubes when needed.

Fluorescents versus LEDs?

owlman — Sun, 09 Aug 2020 19:19:59 +0100

Any Good?

https://www.anselluk.com/product/APRLED4

Fluorescents versus LEDs?

djh — Sun, 09 Aug 2020 23:36:58 +0100

Posted By: CWattersHow big is your kitchen?

4 m x 3.5 m

Posted By: Peter_in_HungaryWhy change them?

Indeed, that's the conclusion I'm being drawn to. I'm just surprised that things haven't really moved on in five years.

The TLC panels have a three year warranty, and I guess you have to replace the entire panel every time so I'm not convinced they would be economically or ecologically advantageous, although using less mercury for sure.

The Ansell fittings offer five years but I can't seem to see a price?

Fluorescents versus LEDs?

owlman — Mon, 10 Aug 2020 16:20:50 +0100

Had you thought of making up your own using LED tape together with a sutable aluminium carrier, either 12 or 24V. If you need it for ambience lighting you could also look at plaster carriers with concealed strip. and then have some form of task specific lighting in selected areas.

Fluorescents versus LEDs?

djh — Mon, 10 Aug 2020 16:52:46 +0100

Posted By: owlmanHad you thought of making up your own using LED tape together with a sutable aluminium carrier, either 12 or 24V. If you need it for ambience lighting you could also look at plaster carriers with concealed strip. and then have some form of task specific lighting in selected areas.

All sounds like a lot of work I just want to replace the existing tubes with something similar. The existing lights are placed to illuminate the worktops.

Fluorescents versus LEDs?

owlman — Mon, 10 Aug 2020 19:00:08 +0100

From my own experience the T5 straight replacement availability is very limited. Some time ago I bought several T5 under cupboard linked fittings for a job. In the end we used LED strip and some of the T5s found a home in my utility room but I couldn't find replacement led tubes of the right lengths.

Fluorescents versus LEDs?

djh — Mon, 10 Aug 2020 20:00:39 +0100

Yes, the 'LED tubes' all seem to imitate T8 fluorescents and most of them have worse lm/W and CRI than HE T5 fluorescents. That's why I've broadened the possibilities to include LED battens and panels. But I've no experience with LEDs apart from GU10s, which at least are relaceable bulbs, and even there I was glad I bought a wide variety to test first because the variation in colour patterns was a lot more than I expected. Hence my search to pick other brains!

The T5 lamps I chose still seem to have fairly wide availability. I standardised on those in our kitchen and utility, and on some longer tubes in IP65 battens for the garage etc.

Fluorescents versus LEDs?

owlman — Mon, 10 Aug 2020 21:27:24 +0100

It often is a bit of a nightmare with modern lighting. Quite a lot of nice stuff is a complete fitting and lamp with the obvious downside when one fails two years on and the model has been replaced. That's why I suggested LED strip and carrier at least that seems to have remained constant size wise and is no too pricey.

Fluorescents versus LEDs?

CWatters — Mon, 10 Aug 2020 22:32:39 +0100

Posted By: djh4 m x 3.5 m

Mine is around 4 * 4 and we manage well with half the lumens you currently have. Think we have 12 * 400 Lumen GU10 LED downlights = 4800 Lumen.

Should be plenty of panels around that are in the ballpark.

Fluorescents versus LEDs?

Simon Still — Wed, 12 Aug 2020 13:32:23 +0100

Posted By: djhYes, the 'LED tubes' all seem to imitate T8 fluorescents and most of them have worse lm/W and CRI than HE T5 fluorescents. T

We fitted a load of fluorescent battens in the workshop. Bulbs are cheap and have a good life and light output - almost certainly better CRI and reliability than many LED products and they're just as efficient. The only drawbacks are fragility (which isn't an issue once fitted) and disposal.

Why change?

Fluorescents versus LEDs?

djh — Wed, 12 Aug 2020 14:59:51 +0100

Posted By: Simon StillWhy change?

That's pretty much the conclusion I'm coming to. Most places won't deliver them, so it means a trip to collect them. Disposal means a trip to the dump every now and then, so not really a problem for us personally. So as long as 'taking them to the dump' is equivalent to 'they get recycled effectively' I think it's probably the best option.

Fluorescents versus LEDs?

bhommels — Wed, 12 Aug 2020 15:53:25 +0100

Posted By: Simon StillWhy change?

They contain (small amounts of) mercury vapour. And since recycling is never 100% efficient, that alone would be a good reason to phase these out, since the technology for effective replacement is available.

Fluorescents versus LEDs?

djh — Wed, 12 Aug 2020 15:57:22 +0100

Posted By: bhommelssince the technology for effective replacement is available

This thread is all about trying to find an effective replacement. Can you point one out? A specific product, that is, not a general technology in principle.

Fluorescents versus LEDs?

RobinB — Wed, 19 Aug 2020 12:27:28 +0100

Screwfix have a few T5 (and T8) options, been very happy with the T8's we replaced in our kitchen. Nice to get rid of the mercury.

e.g.
T5 LED

1250 lm
Lm Band
1001-1500
Manufacturer Guarantee
1 Year Guarantee
Model Name
YKT5BF1-L110

Power Consumption
15 W

Fluorescents versus LEDs?

djh — Wed, 19 Aug 2020 13:16:54 +0100

Thanks Robin. They look like a direct replacement, but they're not as efficient as a fluorescent (both longer and not as bright per watt) and they require the whole unit to be replaced when they fail rather than just the lamp. And only a one-year guarantee :( So I don't feel they're quite a slam dunk yet.

Fluorescents versus LEDs?

owlman — Wed, 19 Aug 2020 13:57:06 +0100

what length tube are you after?

Fluorescents versus LEDs?

djh — Wed, 19 Aug 2020 15:44:12 +0100

The existing ones are 849 mm; 1900-2100 lm; 21 W; 24000 hours. Sylvania FHE 21W/T5/840

But I have some flexibility if I find a better option.

Fluorescents versus LEDs?

owlman — Wed, 19 Aug 2020 16:37:13 +0100

Have you had a look here?

https://www.bltdirect.com/led-t5-tubes

generally you may only get 1100lm with LED at that length. You could get a double fitting of course, or increase the length if using one tube only. If you go for Philips double check the cap fittings and lamp voltage, they do some oddball ones for commercial installs.

Fluorescents versus LEDs?

djh — Wed, 19 Aug 2020 20:19:10 +0100

Thanks, Owlman, those are about the closest I've seen. I like Crompton (all my GU10s are theirs), and they're a direct plug-in replacement. I also like the 5 year warranty. I don't like the price or the low output, though the efficiency is reasonable, but I might buy an odd one as a trial.

BTW, do you or anybody else know of a guide to GU10 types, such as the different types listed at https://www.cromptonlamps.com/catalogue/department.aspx?node_id=03b32549-0ef8-4887-ac7b-a7fb00e3d036&pagesize=48 ?

Fluorescents versus LEDs?

Paul in Montreal — Fri, 21 Aug 2020 11:41:15 +0100

They just replaced all the fluorescents in the parking garage in my building with 4' T8 LEDs ... I just picked up the info from the package: 18W, 2350 lumens, T8 fitting, dimmable and works on 110-277V. 5000K and CRI 80 (they also do CRI 90 versions).

https://www.tcpi.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/WF129351-LED-T5-T8-UBends.pdf

and http://ledt8bulb.com/tcp-lt818a50k-4-foot-18w-5000k-led-t8-direct8-ho-ballast-compatible.html

Seems they're less than US$7 each if you buy more than 25 at once and can use the old fittings/ballasts etc.

Paul in Montreal.

Fluorescents versus LEDs?

djh — Fri, 21 Aug 2020 17:03:25 +0100

That looks promising, thanks Paul. Search, search ... Seems that TCP is a known brand here but for 'bulbs' rather than 'tubes' and rather more CFL and specialist incandescent than LED (though there are some LED).

If only they made European T5 sizes of those Canadian T8 tubes

Fluorescents versus LEDs?

Paul in Montreal — Fri, 21 Aug 2020 19:57:17 +0100

Posted By: djhThat looks promising, thanks Paul. Search, search ... Seems that TCP is a known brand here but for 'bulbs' rather than 'tubes' and rather more CFL and specialist incandescent than LED (though there are some LED).

If only they made European T5 sizes of those Canadian T8 tubes" alt="" src="http:///newforum/extensions/Vanillacons/smilies/standard/cool.gif" >

From the linked PDF: "TCP has a new generation of LED compatible replacement T5 and T8 tubes for linear fixtures. These T5 and T8 tubes ..."

Looks like they do T5 to me - are are the Euro T5's different to the NA ones?

Paul in Montreal.

Fluorescents versus LEDs?

djh — Fri, 21 Aug 2020 20:14:05 +0100

Posted By: Paul in MontrealLooks like they do T5 to me - are are the Euro T5's different to the NA ones?

Yes, they're (bizarre) metric lengths and I'm interested in the 849 mm length rather than the 4' length TCP make. We also have HE and HO tubes rather than different ballasts, though that may amount to the same thing - I've no idea.

But as I say, those products don't seem to be available here in any case.

Fluorescents versus LEDs?

Ed Davies — Sat, 22 Aug 2020 10:23:39 +0100

Posted By: djh: â€œYes, they're (bizarre) metric lengthsâ€¦â€

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluorescent-lamp_formats#T5_tubes

â€œâ€¦these are based on multiples of the 300 mm (11.8 in) "metric foot" instead of the 12 in (305 mm) imperial foot, but are all 37 mm (1.5 in) shorter to allow space for the lampholder connections within the 300mm modular unitsâ€¦â€

Is 849 863 excluding the pins?

Fluorescents versus LEDs?

djh — Sat, 22 Aug 2020 11:56:52 +0100

Posted By: Ed DaviesIs 849 863 excluding the pins?

No, the pins are 5 mm at each end. I can't make sense of the dimensions.

Fluorescents versus LEDs?

WillInAberdeen — Sat, 22 Aug 2020 13:59:05 +0100

Still haven't really understood what you need to achieve here, but if your existing lighting ain't broke, then it's greenest not to fix it. Lighting gear is so efficient now that you need to think about the impact of manufacturing more of it, as well as disposing more of it, not just the electricity it uses.

If it is broken, then I too vote for self adhesive LED tape, stick it under cupboards to light up exactly where you need light and nowhere else.