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Green Building Bible, Fourth Edition
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Products: How much per m2 for EWI

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    • CommentAuthorTriassic
    • CommentTimeSep 7th 2014 edited
     
    A friend just called, she was cold called to say she qualified for EWI under some Government scheme, the salesman was a bit vague as to which scheme or how she qualifies, other than saying it's all done on post code!?

    She lives in a detached stone built, cement rendered, Welsh 'cottage' high up on a hill, which get a good buffeting during the winter from the westerly winds, so can be quite cold. So the guy comes round and started by trying to 'sell' her a biomass boiler as she's on oil, this she declines. However the EWI sounded like a good idea, so she asked for a quote, which she has just received - £21,000. At which point she called me and asked 'is this a good price or just a rip off'?

    I must admit I've no idea, but I say I know some people who may know the answer!She's no idea how many square metres the exterior walls measures, but if we start by understanding what is a fair price per m2 for EWI we can do the maths ourselves. So over to you......
    • CommentAuthorMike George
    • CommentTimeSep 7th 2014 edited
     
    BEWARE OF ANYONE OFFERING EWI grants.

    The most recent green deal cashback scheme required the homeowner (not some doorstep shyster) to make the application which was worth (before it closed) up to £6000

    To answer your question the price for EWI has been until recently between £65 - £85 /m2. With the recent (closed) Green Deal cashback scheme this has inflated up to £150/m2!

    To give you an idea of working out costs a small mid terrace around 40-50m2. A semi detached maybe 70-100m2

    Much more detail on this in the new Autumn Mag:bigsmile:
    • CommentAuthorTriassic
    • CommentTimeSep 7th 2014
     
    Posted By: Mike GeorgeBEWARE OF ANYONE OFFERING EWI grants.
    Talking to me neighbours, people locally are getting at least 1 automated call per day about insulation grants!
    • CommentAuthorMike George
    • CommentTimeSep 7th 2014 edited
     
    Well there are some still available - but the Green Deal Home Improvement Fund (which is the only one really worth having) is closed for this tax year.

    A lot of the automated calls may be about cavity insulation rather than EWI


    There may be some local/housing association initiatives, and there may still be some ECO funding out there for EWI but I would be very wary if I were you.....

    There is some talk of vouchers being offered (illegally) for sale http://www.happyenergy.co.uk/rudd-calls-for-reports-dishonest-gdhif-applications/
  5.  
    Mike, I have never seen a quote as low as £65 - £85. One of my students a few years ago (in expensive London) said he could do it for £90, but I have seen nothing under £100. How often have you seen prices in that range? If I can get it at that I begin to have hope of not having to DIY!!
  6.  
    It's only very recently but I know of four EWI installations being done at £85/m2. Though they were all offered to the same contractor.. I think £100 is about right to be honest for one-off jobs but any more is profiteering in my view. Presumably you have a good idea of the material costs?
    • CommentAuthorSaint
    • CommentTimeSep 7th 2014
     
    Mike, Nick, material costs have dropped as the EWI market has gained momentum.
    You should be seeing them at between £20/m2 and £30/m2 excluding base rails and beads. So that's for the insulation, adhesive and/or fixings plus basecoat, primer and topcoat render for a specification that will give you 0.30 W/m2K on a 9" solid wall.
  8.  
    Over here EWI costs between 1 and 1.5 hour labour charge plus materials per m2. This includes any scaffolding needed and is for the thin film acrylic render. If it can be done here for that price here I don't see why it should be different over in the UK
    Here many builders are happy if you get your own materials from one of the many all in package deals for materials around that work out cheaper than buying individual bits from the local builders merchants. I don't know if such options are available in the UK but maybe worth a look.
  9.  
    Hi Peter, system manufacturers seem to control who sells their products and in most cases this is themselves.... You also have to use their specified products in most cases in order to get any Warranties...
    • CommentAuthorTriassic
    • CommentTimeSep 8th 2014
     
    Posted By: Mike Georgehave to use their specified products in most cases in order to get any Warranties...
    Oh and how much is that worth... probably zero!

    Don't you just get that feeling that consumers are being stitched up here in rip off Britain!?
  11.  
    Yep:cry:
  12.  
    Saint, can you give us suppliers selling EWI materials for the quoted costs. On top there are still the fitter costs, which I believe are between £30 - £40/m2
    • CommentAuthorMike George
    • CommentTimeSep 8th 2014 edited
     
    Try AIS (Swansea) or Encon. Both selling Parex within the quoted band
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeSep 9th 2014
     
    At this stage of the knowledge, I would totally value the mATERIAL SUPPLIER'S TECH REP'S ON-SITE ADVICE AS TO THE PRODUCT COMBINATION (sorry!) that's appropriate to differing circumstances, and to get the fitters and plasterer off on the right foot. Parex in SW England are very good on this - then we buy their product via Encon, and the EPS also via Encon.
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeSep 9th 2014 edited
     
    Just back from Estonia, where everything is rendered and EWI is common. I must say the local-builder level of EWI is extremely slapdash - hard to believe weather-tight in what is a hard winter climate. Ah, come to think, maybe it's v cold but not so much driving rain, UK style. Anyway, mid-wall finish and major corners are OK, but in everything else, poor detailing. Apart from major corners, no use of stop/corner beads - render right up to the (always timber, usually 3G) new window frames, acrylic render alternately smeared on the frame and then not quite meeting it; under eaves just roughly up and around objects, not fully meeting same; at bottom no bellcast, render just stopping where it got spread to. If that's the standard Peter_in_Hungary means, then yes it's probably cheap - all the time-consuming bits ignored? Would be begging for trouble in UK climate, esp west edge of Dartmoor where Atlantic gales sluice rain upwards even!
    • CommentAuthorMike George
    • CommentTimeSep 9th 2014 edited
     
    Posted By: fostertomAt this stage of the knowledge, I would totally value the mATERIAL SUPPLIER'S TECH REP'S ON-SITE ADVICE AS TO THE PRODUCT COMBINATION (sorry!) that's appropriate to differing circumstances, and to get the fitters and plasterer off on the right foot. Parex in SW England are very good on this - then we buy their product via Encon, and the EPS also via Encon.


    I agree with that Tom. But nevertheless material cost inclusive of technical back up does not exceed £30/m2 in my experience -

    Some systems much cheaper...... but without the same level of back up
  17.  
    According to Hungarian boys on site here, material cost much cheaper out there. Base rails for example around £15 each in the UK... £1.50 in Hungary
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeSep 9th 2014 edited
     
    Base rails? Don't use em. Any other comparison points?

    We found a cheap (?) source of EWI stuff (Swindon) http://www.amaroc.co.uk/collections/external-wall-insulation
    esp http://www.amaroc.co.uk/products/6mm-window-profile-with-mesh 30 x 2.4m £90.72+VAT, delivery free over £100 = £1.51/m vs SAS 30 x 3m £170+VAT, collected = £2.27/m
    which we use a lot of, not just around windows, but at every abutment (unless extremely well sheltered) of render with any solid surrounding material. It provides a clean clear silicone-pointable 2mm gap, in the hope of durably, flexibly withstanding sluicing driving rain forever(!).
    Actually I notice the same window beads without mesh is 2/3 the price - is the mesh essential? Is the mesh that's bedded into the base coat enough?
    • CommentAuthorTriassic
    • CommentTimeSep 9th 2014
     
    Posted By: fostertomBase rails?
    I could imagine aluminium base rails liberally washed with
    Posted By: fostertomAtlantic gales sluice rain upwards even!
    would last, what maybe a decade at the most?
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeSep 9th 2014
     
    What are they for anyway?
  21.  
    Very surprised you haven't seen Base rails . Maybe you call them starter tracks?
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  23.  
    I have to say I don't like using them, though I'd be interested to know how others deal with roof abutment details where lead flashing is in place for example
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeSep 9th 2014 edited
     
    I've seen em, never used em, can't see their purpose.
    Posted By: Mike Georgeroof abutment details where lead flashing is in place
    You mean use it as a full-thickness stop bead, so you can still access the lead and the top tile? Why not EWI/render right down onto the top tile? Slide in a flashing extension maybe, under the extg one, but why even that? Internal insulation, whether on same wall face benearth the tile line, or to underside of roof slope, can then connect up with the EWI all bar the tile thickness. If tiling has to be re-done in future, just abandon the top tile course, or rather pull it out and start the new tiling 2/3 of a tile lower down. Any wise comments?
  25.  
    Had some discussions with Techie guys from one of the system manufacturers - they don't like insulation fitted directly onto tiles or slates and have details for the base rails in their specification.

    They contend that water can get into the system if the rails are not used - I haven't really challenged them on how it affects the Warranty if we don't use them....
  26.  
    Incidentally I don't like them as I see them as an air path into and behind the system. But I can also see the point about water ingress
    • CommentAuthorjamesingram
    • CommentTimeSep 9th 2014 edited
     
    Re roof abutments for single storey extensions etc to side of two storey building.
    done a couple
    I take off lead flashing , lift tiles nearby, cut back battons and EWI board down to lower than roof insulation layer ( or link into warm roof).
    cut and stick the tiles back flush with board using undercloaking , then flash up the board and fix top through a drip bead and mesh render down to bead , like you might with sand cement render.
    My thought was if the flashing top section decouples with the mesh render slightly it shouldn't be a problem as the overlap makes it water proof and the mesh and drip bead tie the render lip together .
    ( I think with quality detailing EWI should be around £100m2 ++ )
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeSep 9th 2014 edited
     
    Posted By: Mike GeorgeI can also see the point about water ingress
    I don't - it's just a tray inviting water to track across it. And a massive thermal bridge. It used to be 'to carry the weight' and/or 'to provide a level starter'. Funny how the story keeps changing, about this profitable system item. EPS doesn't mind being wet, and is almost non-wicking.
    • CommentAuthorjamesingram
    • CommentTimeSep 9th 2014 edited
     
    I've used starter trays/ base rail in the past, I wont again.
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeSep 9th 2014
     
    Cost/m2 of EWI is almost insensitive to insulation thickness - if ever there was an incentive to maximise thickness while you're at it ....

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