Home  5  Books  5  GBEzine  5  News  5  HelpDesk  5  Register  5  GreenBuilding.co.uk
Not signed in (Sign In)

Categories



Green Building Bible, Fourth Edition
Green Building Bible, fourth edition (both books)
These two books are the perfect starting place to help you get to grips with one of the most vitally important aspects of our society - our homes and living environment.

PLEASE NOTE: A download link for Volume 1 will be sent to you by email and Volume 2 will be sent to you by post as a book.

Buy individually or both books together. Delivery is free!


powered by Surfing Waves




Vanilla 1.0.3 is a product of Lussumo. More Information: Documentation, Community Support.

Welcome to new Forum Visitors
Join the forum now and benefit from discussions with thousands of other green building fans and discounts on Green Building Press publications: Apply now.




  1.  
    We are now 3 months into our Turbine producing power (first 3 months reading: 8,479 kWh) and we are exporting quite a bit of surplus power we don't use back to the grid. We use electricity for a lot of our processes in the factory, but not for heating our wax storage tanks. Our system is very basic we have 7 tanks (they can each hold up to 400 kgs of wax) they all have a hot water jacket surrounding them the system runs at just under 1 bar pressure and at a temp of around 75c. We need to run it 24/7 as the energy needed to melt several tons of wax from cold is massive and takes ages (we just top the tanks up as required). the dream is to use solar to augment this system when funds allow, the mix of wind and solar should work well. However someone has suggested that we could very simply put some immersion heaters into the water jackets and using something called an "Emma" we can run these only when we are exporting and these will switch off when we are not exporting these would act as boost to the system and hopefully save on the kerosene. I would be really grateful if anyone has any thoughts on if this, is good idea or not and where and how pricey the kit required is? Thanks
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeMar 1st 2012
     
    I think the control unit that you have in mind is a bit expensive

    You could have your own bespoke one made or make one yourself all the parts are available on the high street. A simple controller that switches power so that you use it rather than exporting it

    I would think that you could use all that you generate plus some so may be connect up direct to the water tanks, not so sure about an immersion in a tank of wax, what happens when it fails?
  2.  
    I've heard of the Emma control thingy and on this forum and remember the comments about it being too expensive for what it was. Also remember some comments about how easy such a controller is to make and for only a few quid. Can't remember the tread but i'm sure you'll find it if you have time to look.
  3.  
    Thanks Tony, I guess if the wax hardens it gets stuck! My nightmare is always a boiler breakdown we have had it a couple of times over the years and if it all goes really hard (actually takes a few days to cool fully) it takes at least 2 days to remelt. Luckily I live next door so I very sadly can check pretty often (weekends I turn the boiler down to just keep the wax just liquid and no more). I guess the thing I don't want to do is import electricity from the grid and my knowledge is zero on how you can set this up so the system knows when to turn on and off, is this something the sparks we use would know?
    • CommentAuthorJoiner
    • CommentTimeMar 1st 2012
     
    Sounds like a job for Super Jez! :bigsmile:
  4.  
    There are a number of topics over on the Navitron forum discussing lower cost alternatives to the EMMA. Maybe a search there would help you?
    •  
      CommentAuthorJSHarris
    • CommentTimeMar 1st 2012
     
    Sorry, missed this earlier........

    In essence it should be simple enough to divert excess power to the wax heater using immersion heaters, the only slight difficulty is getting something that has some means of changing the power gradually, rather than just being an on/off switch, if that's needed for fine control.

    Making a DIY variable power supply for an immersion heater isn't hard, but if it's in a place of work it would almost certainly need some sort of approval, if only for insurance purposes. For that reason you may have to settle for something a bit less sophisticated, using off-the-shelf parts, as Tony has suggested.

    Whether you need anything other than a simple switch, set to turn on an immersion heater when a set export threshold is reached depends on a few factors, including how much excess power you're exporting and how much heat input the wax tanks need. One option instead of an immersion heater in the tanks might be to just fit a cheap electric boiler in series with the oil boiler and switch this on or off as required.

    First off you need to detect when you are exporting by more than the rating of the heater. This is where I'm at a bit of a loss for an off-the-shelf part. It's be pretty easy to take a couple of ordinary clamp on current sensors and detect the value of current flowing when exporting, then have a bit of circuitry to turn on the heater, but the snag is I'm not familiar with an off-the-shelf system that will do this.
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeMar 1st 2012
     
    why not send all the power to an immersion in the water system?
    • CommentAuthorBeau
    • CommentTimeMar 1st 2012 edited
     
    Would this do the job?
    http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=250969883834#ht_500wt_1202
    It talks only about solar power but I presume it just detects that your exporting.
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeMar 1st 2012
     
    Could have a number of heaters, coming on sequentially.

    First thing you need to know is the energy input into your water jackets and the volume of water, this will be lower than the output from your boiler (is it gas or oil?). Input and output temperatures would be useful too.

    Then look at thermally insulating them more. Wax can store a lot of thermal energy, so you should be able to reduce the input some more.

    Once you know that you are then in a position to start thinking about heating electrically. The way I understand it is that the voltage from your inverter is slightly higher that the local grid, this causes 'the faster electrons' to reach the nearest load, therefore using your power rather than drawing from the grid (I have never yet found out why it does this and the water analogy for electricity does not work for me here). So as long as you can generate more than the first of several heaters, you will be using your power.
    The 'box of tricks' to do this is probably a current/voltage sensor and a load of contactors. Soft Start electronics may work to lessen the start up load (not really my field but we used them on a very large sauna installation and it saved tripping out the whole leisure centre).

    As for solar, I think this is probably a non starter as you need to consistently have the water at over 75°C, and probably quite a lot of water as well. Cornwall has a mean solar radiation of about 135 W.m^-2, and really peaks over 1000 W.m^-2. So for every square meter of effective solar collection you would get somewhere around half that. a 70W heater is about what is used to keep a 1m fishtank at 24°C.

    Work on the numbers and losses first. Knowing where you are and then using less is the way forward.
  5.  
    Some really useful comments thanks to all. I guess you (ST) are right in that the system is not well insulated each tank is wrapped in 4" of insulation but the lids are MDF and worst of all a lot of the working day the lids are partly open so we do need to address this. I like the idea of immersion heaters in the water then I guess the water returning to the boiler would be hotter and the boiler would then cut in less. Right time to do some research. I will take some before and after pictures and let you all know how I get along.
    • CommentAuthorowlman
    • CommentTimeMar 2nd 2012 edited
     
    Instead of putting numerous immersions into numerous water jackets, why not just put say three immersions into a single well insulated hot water storage tank i.e. accumulator. This tank can be charged from various sources incl. your boiler. Then you are only left with the hot water distribution to you insulated water jackets, most of the plumbing etc. most likely already exists. So simply tapping into the exixting system and then a matter of pumps valves and thermostats.
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeMar 2nd 2012
     
    sounds like insulation to the tanks and lids is needed

    downside of an accumulator is that it is another place to loose heat from.
    •  
      CommentAuthorJSHarris
    • CommentTimeMar 2nd 2012
     
    I did suggest earlier using a cheap electric boiler in series with the oil fired one you have already. That would be simple to plumb in and would boost the water temperature up when the turbine would normally of been exporting, reducing the firing time for the oil boiler.
  6.  
    Just had a visit from Steamy Tea who very kindly said he would take a look at our set up here. it was quickly established that poor insulation is indeed our biggest failing! ST has left some gizmos that will take the systems temp over the next week or so. While they do their stuff I will investigate switches/sensors. Will let you know when we make progress. A new project I love it!!
    Thanks again guys for all your input.
    • CommentAuthorowlman
    • CommentTimeMar 2nd 2012
     
    Posted By: tony...........................downside of an accumulator is that it is another place to loose heat from.

    Do you loose heat from your house tony? You tell us not much, therefore why should a well insulated accumulator loose much too.:bigsmile:
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeMar 2nd 2012
     
    delta T is high and if you can plan not to have one then zero is better than whatever it would be.
Add your comments

    Username Password
  • Format comments as
 
   
The Ecobuilding Buzz
Site Map    |   Home    |   View Cart    |   Pressroom   |   Business   |   Links   
Logout    

© Green Building Press