Tue, 19 Dec 2023 05:32:23 +0000 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/ Lussumo Vanilla 1.0.3 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14338&Focus=242634#Comment_242634 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14338&Focus=242634#Comment_242634 Sat, 18 Jun 2016 17:17:10 +0100 tony
The standard was set up over thirty years ago and a lot has changed since that time. Within the next thirty years energy prices will have risen hugely.

What is the optimum energy demand for a building, is there such a thing and is it time or energy price dependant?]]> http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14338&Focus=242636#Comment_242636 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14338&Focus=242636#Comment_242636 Sat, 18 Jun 2016 18:17:16 +0100 Ed Davies h/m²/y.

Of course, the North American argument is that in very cold climates even going down to this level is a waste of money.

If you're looking at carbon emissions then, considering the embodied carbon in PUR and the like, when U values get below about 0.1 W/m²K you start to lose out over reasonable periods of time (30 to 50 years). With mineral wool (which has lower embodied carbon per unit of thermal resistance) it makes sense to go lower but then you get a very thick wall with associated structural costs and, in some cases, planning footprint considerations.

Something to consider is that buildings tend to need heating at just the times of year when in future we might expect energy to be expensive (unlike, for example, cooling which tends to be needed when PV is producing so energy is likely to be cheap). Suppose everybody lived in a Passivhaus but all consumed their 1500 kWh, or whatever, as electricity in the same six weeks of the year. Roughly 1.5 kW per house (6 weeks is 1008 hours). With something like 25 million dwellings in the UK that's an extra 37 GW or so. Smart meters are likely to really rack up the prices during that period.

(Obviously it'd really be spread over a longer period with a ramp up and down but this serves to illustrate the sort of peak that'd be involved).]]> http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14338&Focus=242639#Comment_242639 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14338&Focus=242639#Comment_242639 Sat, 18 Jun 2016 19:58:52 +0100 barney
What's the value of money now compared to the point when we see these large energy cost increases (if we actually do see them)

I think the other point might be "what's the building type" and "what is the intended life"

It's not difficult to show diminishing returns being magnified by projections on energy costs

Regards

Barney]]> http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14338&Focus=242642#Comment_242642 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14338&Focus=242642#Comment_242642 Sat, 18 Jun 2016 20:29:27 +0100 atomicbisf
Ed]]> http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14338&Focus=242645#Comment_242645 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14338&Focus=242645#Comment_242645 Sat, 18 Jun 2016 21:28:26 +0100 fostertom And incomes will continue to fall much faster than prices, until some way other than work is invented, to distribute value as spending power instead of as paper stock-market valuation.]]> http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14338&Focus=242651#Comment_242651 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14338&Focus=242651#Comment_242651 Sat, 18 Jun 2016 22:59:08 +0100 ringi
But I don’t like XX kWh/m²/y at all, as having a smaller home with a higher XX kWh/m²/y can use fewer resources to both heat and build. I expect by better design we could reduce the size of homes “self builders” believe they need for a given quality of life.]]> http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14338&Focus=242652#Comment_242652 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14338&Focus=242652#Comment_242652 Sat, 18 Jun 2016 23:29:42 +0100 gravelld http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14338&Focus=242657#Comment_242657 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14338&Focus=242657#Comment_242657 Sun, 19 Jun 2016 07:35:57 +0100 SteamyTea So it is really just a matter of working out the marginal costs of reducing energy usage via increased insulation, better airtightness/MVHR, better appliances and lighting.

What is hard to do is work out an average figure as houses are different sizes, different shapes, have different occupancy levels.]]> http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14338&Focus=242659#Comment_242659 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14338&Focus=242659#Comment_242659 Sun, 19 Jun 2016 09:38:40 +0100 fostertom Posted By: ringihaving a smaller homePH deliberately steers clear of the hot-potato suggestion that we 'should' make do with less floorspace per person. It's an area where eco-responsibility is all tangled up with egalitarian politico-righteousness.]]> http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14338&Focus=242660#Comment_242660 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14338&Focus=242660#Comment_242660 Sun, 19 Jun 2016 09:41:07 +0100 tony
I cannot see renewables being implemented quickly enough to prevent very rapid energy price rises as oil and gas run out.]]> http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14338&Focus=242670#Comment_242670 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14338&Focus=242670#Comment_242670 Sun, 19 Jun 2016 11:15:36 +0100 fostertom Posted By: tonyas oil and gas run outThey're not going to run out - 'peak oil' (which hasn't happened even yet) means that the rate of production has never been higher - not remotely that oil is running out.

However Saudi in particular has understood that fossil's days are numbered for technological/environmental/political reasons and, while transitioning to post-oil itself, is flogging off its own end-game oil (which has lower production cost than anyone else's) so cheap as to clear its own stocks while everyone else's become uncompetitive, mothballed.
This is the surprising twist that has reversed the expectation of oil's end by pricing itself out.
It's one more of the rare examples that should have been in
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Collapse-Societies-Choose-Fail-Survive/dp/0241958687/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1466331234&sr=8-1&keywords=jared+collapse
of nations that see the light just in time to avoid the usual lemming-rush over the cliff.

So much for the trillions USA has spent on the contradictory policies
a) of rendering the middle east helpless to resist US oil-grab, and
b) of 'oil independence' via high cost, low-EROEI fracking and tar-sands production.
Both turn out to have been a waste of time and money.]]> http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14338&Focus=242698#Comment_242698 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14338&Focus=242698#Comment_242698 Sun, 19 Jun 2016 16:53:04 +0100 tony http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14338&Focus=242701#Comment_242701 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14338&Focus=242701#Comment_242701 Sun, 19 Jun 2016 17:49:27 +0100 fostertom
One such reason could be how England embarassed and disadvantaged its imperial competitors by leading the abolition of slavery. England had discovered a more profitable way (to create and quasi-enslave a homegrown working class) so could well afford to outlaw overseas farm-based slavery, which the rest of the imperial powers were still hooked on.

Saudi is rich and nimble enough to build a post-oil economy, at a pace it can modulate to its advantage through oil sales, thoroughly embarassing the US behemoth which can do no such radical thing.]]> http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14338&Focus=242703#Comment_242703 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14338&Focus=242703#Comment_242703 Sun, 19 Jun 2016 18:14:03 +0100 Ed Davies Posted By: fostertomSaudi is rich and nimble enough…and tends to get a bit of sunlight.]]> http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14338&Focus=242708#Comment_242708 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14338&Focus=242708#Comment_242708 Sun, 19 Jun 2016 19:11:15 +0100 fostertom http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14338&Focus=242731#Comment_242731 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14338&Focus=242731#Comment_242731 Sun, 19 Jun 2016 23:47:14 +0100 djh Posted By: Ed DaviesSomething to consider is that buildings tend to need heating at just the times of year when in future we might expect energy to be expensive (unlike, for example, cooling which tends to be needed when PV is producing so energy is likely to be cheap). Suppose everybody lived in a Passivhaus but all consumed their 1500 kWh, or whatever, as electricity in the same six weeks of the year. Roughly 1.5 kW per house (6 weeks is 1008 hours). With something like 25 million dwellings in the UK that's an extra 37 GW or so. Smart meters are likely to really rack up the prices during that period.
That's why I think it makes some sense to design dwellings to 'overheat', so that more of their energy demand is for cooling in the summer rather than heating in the winter. It would tend to balance demand somewhat and be beneficial to the extent that energy was derived from sunlight.

Note that I said 'dwellings' because larger commercial building typically behave in this way already.]]> http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14338&Focus=242742#Comment_242742 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14338&Focus=242742#Comment_242742 Mon, 20 Jun 2016 09:29:54 +0100 Ed Davies http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14338&Focus=242745#Comment_242745 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14338&Focus=242745#Comment_242745 Mon, 20 Jun 2016 09:46:46 +0100 djh http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14338&Focus=242746#Comment_242746 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14338&Focus=242746#Comment_242746 Mon, 20 Jun 2016 09:47:54 +0100 Ed Davies
https://twitter.com/passivistas/status/744800758231506944 Passivhaus in Greece

Only 2 hours before my post.]]>