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Green Building Bible, Fourth Edition
Green Building Bible, fourth edition (both books)
These two books are the perfect starting place to help you get to grips with one of the most vitally important aspects of our society - our homes and living environment.

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    • CommentAuthorMatt
    • CommentTimeNov 29th 2008 edited
     
    My sister in law and husband have a house in Suffolk. The 30+year old(!) oil boiler is using outrageous amounts of fuel, and becoming a little weary - clearly time for a replacement. They do have a huge old log burner attached (un pumped) to three radiators upstairs. Not on mains gas.

    Now, the house is mainly double glazed, 50% 150yr old solid wall/50% 2 year old cavity extension - but almost nil loft insulation etc due to a crap conversion.

    Radiators are fairly new, and fitting UFH would be very expensive (solid stone floors downstairs it seems), so ruling out ASHP or GSHP due to poor CoP.

    But- they have a pond 20' from the house (over narrow country lane). Now the pond is on farmland, and they *think* they could get permission to use it. I needs a clean/trees pruned back etc - but,it could be great for water source heating. I guess I am wondering if a 'cheaper' installation is possible (minimal digging, less pipes etc etc) and much better max CoP, meaning that use of radiators is possible, albeit with a much lower (but still good) CoP. Clearing the trees would also throw significantly more solar gain on the house from the South...

    Last option is new oil boiler, lots of loft insulation and couple of new windows/doors, and start saving for solar thermal asap.

    Thoughts on water source+rads....?
    • CommentAuthorchuckey
    • CommentTimeNov 29th 2008
     
    What size is the pond? Does it have fish in it?. I ask these questions as just when you want the heat, cos' its -10 outside, the top of the pond is frozen so the maximum temperature of the water at the bottom will be +4, so if you cool this the depth of ice will increase and eventually the fish will die and you will freeze. At most other times the pond will gain heat from the sun, depending on its area and shading so would be very useful and efficient in terms of pipe length. Writing (and thinking on the fly) the above, has caused me to change my mind, it goes like this:- If you put your pipes on the bottom of the pond, you cool the lower volume of water, so it sinks. This cold water then sits around your pipe, until its temperature gets to below 4 deg C, then it expands and rises, but when its temperature hits 4 deg C, when water is at its densest, so it sinks again to your pipework.
    Now if you can mount your pipework higher up in the pond, the cold water from it will sink and warm water will come in to replace it, so there will be movement of the water and some mixing. So the system will work providing you do not hit the 4 deg C point when it will fail again.
    Very Fraught!!
    Frank
    • CommentAuthorMatt
    • CommentTimeNov 29th 2008
     
    No fish - currently stagnant pool surrounded by trees, approx 50'x100'
    • CommentAuthormike7
    • CommentTimeNov 29th 2008
     
    My own situation is not dissimilar, but the pond is further away. Have considered both G and ASHP but am not convinced, though I am still mulling it over - sufficient to experiment with the lowest CH (lpg) water temperature I could get away with so as to estimate how much more radiator area I would need. As we are, it works not too badly at 60C, so doubling the area of rad should do it. Or I wonder about fan assisted rads where space is short.

    Others here may know more, but I'd guess the pond would chiefly save on installation cost. How big is it? A small lake might be more the thing....

    I put in a new condensing boiler 2 yrs ago and I recon it was worth it. If I did use a heat pump, I should almost certainly want a peak-demand-lopping boiler in the system. Something that burns wood could do this as well, but I might not want to depend on that when I'm older.

    Brace yourself for a loud chorus of 'insulate the roof!' from all and sundry. Me too. Even some is going to be way better than nothing and its not so dear, I think.

    A low investment possibility with high instantaneous returns is the traditional one of simply hunkering down a bit in the winter. Wear more, and heat fewer rooms. Get headphones so people can listen/watch without going to another room to do it, electric blankets in the bed, that sort of thing.
    • CommentAuthorMatt
    • CommentTimeNov 29th 2008
     
    Aye, the more I ponder tonight, the more insulating the roof and windows seems a 'must' - the boiler is a separate issue..
    • CommentAuthorvalasay
    • CommentTimeFeb 3rd 2009
     
    I do have loft insulation already but will look at installing more. The question I have about water sourced heat pumps is to do with the distance from a sea loch with a strong current. It is around 100m from our house and down a drop of 50m. Would the pump have to work so hard to overcome the distance/drop it would be less efficient than an air source? Am I wrong to think that the only part in the water are the pipes? Would there be anything else in the water that would be liable to corrosion.

    Our local installers are not terribly enthusiastic and I don't know if it's because they don't fancy doing something different or if there is a sound reason for sticking to air source.

    I'd appreciate some impartial advice from any of the knowledgeable folk our there.
  1.  
    You're best off going for a closed-loop system with a heat exchanger in the Loch itself, rather than using the sea water directly. Pumping water in a closed loop uses less energy than it would to pump it up out of the sea and then discharge it. You want something like a "Slim Jim" heat exchanger.

    See http://deanadventures.com/pictures/geothermal/36-DSCN1837.jpg and http://deanadventures.com/pictures/geothermal/40-DSCN1852.jpg on this page http://deanadventures.com/htms/geothermal.html for examples of the sort of thing you could do.

    But air-source on a mild west coast location will work well too.

    Paul in Montreal.
    • CommentAuthorvalasay
    • CommentTimeFeb 3rd 2009
     
    Thanks Paul,
    I suspect there will be a few times in the year when the tide will be too low to cover the top of the slim jim which is why I was thinking of a closed loop system. I had hoped that the exchanger wouldnt need to go in the sea as I'm sure the corrosion will have too damaging an effect. Wishful thinking I guess.
    Out of interest how far is too far to be practical?

    Air source remains a viable option but would very strong winds have a damaging effect. eg. on the fans?
    • CommentAuthorralphd
    • CommentTimeFeb 3rd 2009
     
    Hot water radiators generally run at ~60C. If your heat source (pond) is ~5C then your 55C lift will equate to a poor COP (probably around 2.0). If you go water-to-air, your lift will be around 30C and your COP around 3-3.5.

    If the pond is >100m^2 and at least 1m deep, you wont be able to freeze it; you have to extract 80 calories of energy to freeze 1g of water at 0C vs 1 calorie to cool 1g of water at 1C to 0C.

    In addition to a better heating system, an old house like that will benefit significantly from air-sealing (and as you mentioned, additional insulation).
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