Green Building Forum - Green building codes don't save energy Tue, 19 Dec 2023 07:37:01 +0000 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/ Lussumo Vanilla 1.0.3 Green building codes don't save energy http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=13050&Focus=218378#Comment_218378 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=13050&Focus=218378#Comment_218378 Mon, 02 Feb 2015 10:01:50 +0000 Triassic
In a paper published by the National Bureau of Economic Research, Arik Levinson said that energy codes enacted in California in 1978 were supposed to reduce energy consumption by 80 percent.

But homes built since then actually don't use less energy, even though the codes have added thousands of dollars to the cost of construction.

http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/blogs/dept/green-building-news/study-green-building-codes-don-t-save-energy?utm_content=bufferde198&utm_medium=social&utm_source=linkedin.com&utm_campaign=buffer

I was wondering if the same was true here?]]> Green building codes don't save energy http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=13050&Focus=218379#Comment_218379 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=13050&Focus=218379#Comment_218379 Mon, 02 Feb 2015 10:15:23 +0000 danielbroad
Old draughty Victorian single brick houses that haven't been upgraded are freezing regardless how much heating energy you put into them. (sometimes to the surprise of purchasers it seems reading around the internet!)/

How much difference between a 2000 and 2010 house, probably not noticeable.]]> Green building codes don't save energy http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=13050&Focus=218380#Comment_218380 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=13050&Focus=218380#Comment_218380 Mon, 02 Feb 2015 10:25:33 +0000 DarylP Not really a fair comparison......:sad:]]> Green building codes don't save energy http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=13050&Focus=218390#Comment_218390 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=13050&Focus=218390#Comment_218390 Mon, 02 Feb 2015 14:08:04 +0000 fostertom Posted By: TriassicNational Bureau of Economic ResearchI'd put money on this being a right wing think tank.]]> Green building codes don't save energy http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=13050&Focus=218398#Comment_218398 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=13050&Focus=218398#Comment_218398 Mon, 02 Feb 2015 15:39:45 +0000 gravelld Green building codes don't save energy http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=13050&Focus=218414#Comment_218414 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=13050&Focus=218414#Comment_218414 Mon, 02 Feb 2015 21:16:03 +0000 dimengineer The one thing that surprise me is how few Americans seem to have Solar Thermal, which you'd think would be a no brainer]]> Green building codes don't save energy http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=13050&Focus=218415#Comment_218415 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=13050&Focus=218415#Comment_218415 Mon, 02 Feb 2015 21:20:47 +0000 dimengineer Green building codes don't save energy http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=13050&Focus=218418#Comment_218418 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=13050&Focus=218418#Comment_218418 Mon, 02 Feb 2015 22:23:35 +0000 Triassic Posted By: dimengineerMore efficent houses and other devices just mean people have more of it..... But are UK homes getting more efficient, or have we stood still over the last decade?]]> Green building codes don't save energy http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=13050&Focus=218427#Comment_218427 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=13050&Focus=218427#Comment_218427 Tue, 03 Feb 2015 08:52:26 +0000 DarylP
With the addition of larger (plasma!) TVs, DVD players, PCs, laptops,, tablets, mobiles I would suggest our kW electrical usage has gone up, but for gas CH, gone down...

As 'fabric' standards have improved, the housing stock has generally improved, but not by enough:cry:]]> Green building codes don't save energy http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=13050&Focus=218428#Comment_218428 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=13050&Focus=218428#Comment_218428 Tue, 03 Feb 2015 09:06:01 +0000 Greenfish Posted By: DarylPAs 'fabric' standards have improved, the housing stock has generally improved, but not by enoughShould add standards for new or rennovated houses... the vast majority of housing is old cold and leaky, so overall the improvements in the stock are terribly slow.]]> Green building codes don't save energy http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=13050&Focus=218431#Comment_218431 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=13050&Focus=218431#Comment_218431 Tue, 03 Feb 2015 09:26:46 +0000 DarylP However, yes I agree, more effort could/should be directed to improvements across the existing housing stock.]]> Green building codes don't save energy http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=13050&Focus=218438#Comment_218438 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=13050&Focus=218438#Comment_218438 Tue, 03 Feb 2015 10:25:58 +0000 atomicbisf Posted By: fostertom
Posted By: TriassicNational Bureau of Economic Research
I'd put money on this being a right wing think tank.

Probably some outfit that argues that regulation is the root of all evil and that left to its own devices industry would make the best of all possible worlds ;)

Ed]]> Green building codes don't save energy http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=13050&Focus=218441#Comment_218441 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=13050&Focus=218441#Comment_218441 Tue, 03 Feb 2015 10:59:16 +0000 CWatters "Recently built homes actually use more electricity than homes built prior to the 1978 building codes, but these homes are larger, built in warmer climates and have more residents than the pre-1978 homes."

Sounds like more air con is to blame.]]> Green building codes don't save energy http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=13050&Focus=218442#Comment_218442 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=13050&Focus=218442#Comment_218442 Tue, 03 Feb 2015 10:59:33 +0000 atomicbisf Posted By: danielbroadDepends what your cut off date is doesn't it?

Old draughty Victorian single brick houses that haven't been upgraded are freezing regardless how much heating energy you put into them. (sometimes to the surprise of purchasers it seems reading around the internet!)/

How much difference between a 2000 and 2010 house, probably not noticeable.

That's because the housing market in the UK is so conservative and it has been drummed into people for decades that old is good, that it was built to last etc. Which may be true, but does not necessarily mean it performs well.

You should have heard the prophets of doom when I was planning to buy this 1940s system built house, of what a bad choice it was and how a Victorian single skinned home would be better. Of course I ignored this nonsense but if you look at house prices you can see a single skinned terraced house (this is a semi) with a fraction of the garden, much more restricted on street parking within 500 m of here goes for almost twice as much.

Ed]]> Green building codes don't save energy http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=13050&Focus=218450#Comment_218450 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=13050&Focus=218450#Comment_218450 Tue, 03 Feb 2015 13:25:21 +0000 beelbeebub
It's like saying my 2015 Ford Mondeo has the same sized fuel tank as my 1970 Ford Mustang V8. It's irrelevant, my Mondeo has air con, power everything and will go twice as far on a tank.

Think what a 1978 house would have, gas heater, some light bulbs, a cooker, fridge freezer, a hi-fi, a 20" tv, maybe an atari.

A 2015 house will have all of that plus several 30" screens a 40+ screen, microwave, icemaker, coffee maker, air con, auto garage doors, more computing power than the entire USA c1978.

So by making things more efficient, we can have more for the same.

The article does make the point that increasing price is the main driver for reducing consumption, and this is true. At the mo gas for heating and hot water costs me about a pound a day. We have the house at 20c, and use lots of hot water. We could cut our usage but with the standing charge etc it's not really worth it.

Strangely enough my friend pays about the same for gas, but only has the heating on for half an hour in the morning and half an hour at night. His place is jumper and thick socks cold.

So you could argue my investment in insulation has not been worth it as we use the same gas as a 1930s semi!]]> Green building codes don't save energy http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=13050&Focus=218455#Comment_218455 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=13050&Focus=218455#Comment_218455 Tue, 03 Feb 2015 13:40:38 +0000 rhamdu Posted By: CWatters
"Recently built homes actually use more electricity than homes built prior to the 1978 building codes, but these homes are larger, built in warmer climates and have more residents than the pre-1978 homes."

You nailed it.

We have a similar issue with house prices in the UK. Yes, there have been huge increases because of underlying land prices. And meanwhile, homes have got smaller, which makes it worse. But on the positive side, the average house is a better building today than the average house was in, say 1970. I know some building regulations have perverse effects, but most of them make today's homes safer, more comfortable and cheaper to run than those of yesteryear.

Don't go on about the rising cost of a three-bedroom house unless you compare homes of similar size and quality.]]> Green building codes don't save energy http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=13050&Focus=218459#Comment_218459 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=13050&Focus=218459#Comment_218459 Tue, 03 Feb 2015 14:25:07 +0000 ringi Posted By: atomicbisf

You should have heard the prophets of doom when I was planning to buy this 1940s system built house, of what a bad choice it was and how a Victorian single skinned home would be better.

Ed

I would not have brought it, as I know how hard it can be to get a mortgage on anything "odd", and one day you may need to sell it, and if buyers can't get mortgages...]]> Green building codes don't save energy http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=13050&Focus=218462#Comment_218462 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=13050&Focus=218462#Comment_218462 Tue, 03 Feb 2015 14:51:35 +0000 fostertom Posted By: atomicbisfsome outfit that argues that regulation is the root of all evil and that left to its own devices industry would make the best of all possible worldsunless of course the regulation is to industry's advantage
http://act.sumofus.org/go/7480?t=1&akid=9195.3371200.lxFSgt]]> Green building codes don't save energy http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=13050&Focus=218467#Comment_218467 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=13050&Focus=218467#Comment_218467 Tue, 03 Feb 2015 15:31:51 +0000 atomicbisf Posted By: ringi
Posted By: atomicbisf

You should have heard the prophets of doom when I was planning to buy this 1940s system built house, of what a bad choice it was and how a Victorian single skinned home would be better.

Ed


I would not have brought it, as I know how hard it can be to get a mortgage on anything "odd", and one day you may need to sell it, and if buyers can't get mortgages...

Not really true unless it's a system deemed defective under the Housing Defects Acts (mostly PRC systems). None of the big high street lenders such as Halifax, Santander, Barclays etc had a problem, except for the asbestos roof covering which is replaceable. Smaller lenders can be more fussy, but they're not normally of much interest for a house of this value. Given there are about 33 000 BISF houses nationally and several hundred in town, it was pretty easy to find out how hard they are to sell, which locally is 'not very'. Typically no more than a few weeks on the market. Next door but one has just sold after no more than two months. And of course given there are so many, it's easy to find other people's experiences.

Ed]]> Green building codes don't save energy http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=13050&Focus=218482#Comment_218482 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=13050&Focus=218482#Comment_218482 Tue, 03 Feb 2015 17:52:51 +0000 SteamyTea I suspect that 'next door but one' sold because of the area i.e. near to Bath, a desirable place.]]> Green building codes don't save energy http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=13050&Focus=218490#Comment_218490 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=13050&Focus=218490#Comment_218490 Tue, 03 Feb 2015 18:18:40 +0000 Triassic Posted By: atomicbisfTypically no more than a few weeks on the market. Next door but one has just sold after no more than two months. Houses round here are sticking on the market for months, with a couple in our street being on for over a year. Funny old housing market!]]> Green building codes don't save energy http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=13050&Focus=218503#Comment_218503 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=13050&Focus=218503#Comment_218503 Wed, 04 Feb 2015 01:40:36 +0000 atomicbisf
Actually the person who bought the house next door but one saw my IWI projects on BISFhouse.com and contacted me before she made an offer as she recognised the house.

Ed]]> Green building codes don't save energy http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=13050&Focus=218585#Comment_218585 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=13050&Focus=218585#Comment_218585 Thu, 05 Feb 2015 01:07:26 +0000 the souter Green building codes don't save energy http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=13050&Focus=218588#Comment_218588 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=13050&Focus=218588#Comment_218588 Thu, 05 Feb 2015 08:12:05 +0000 DarylP ]]> Green building codes don't save energy http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=13050&Focus=218622#Comment_218622 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=13050&Focus=218622#Comment_218622 Thu, 05 Feb 2015 15:34:31 +0000 Triassic
I'm sure we've all seen examples of poor workmanship and that "it'll be covered up so why worry" attitude, resulting in elements of a build that don't meet the regs.

Here's a good example of External insulation that did not meet the standard - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-29818628]]> Green building codes don't save energy http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=13050&Focus=218623#Comment_218623 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=13050&Focus=218623#Comment_218623 Thu, 05 Feb 2015 15:48:09 +0000 fostertom Green building codes don't save energy http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=13050&Focus=218644#Comment_218644 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=13050&Focus=218644#Comment_218644 Thu, 05 Feb 2015 19:47:28 +0000 DarylP :bigsmile::bigsmile::bigsmile::bigsmile::cry:]]> Green building codes don't save energy http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=13050&Focus=218727#Comment_218727 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=13050&Focus=218727#Comment_218727 Fri, 06 Feb 2015 16:13:52 +0000 Triassic
To the energy providers credit, they put right the faults and provided the customer with copies of the various report produced by the failing 4 parties, something the 4 declined to do themselves.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b05126z1]]> Green building codes don't save energy http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=13050&Focus=218729#Comment_218729 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=13050&Focus=218729#Comment_218729 Fri, 06 Feb 2015 16:59:12 +0000 atomicbisf
Ed]]>