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General: Why inward opening doors?

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  1.  
    Not exactly a green building issue, but I think this forum's got some intelligent heads participating, so here goes.

    I'm renovating a timber house at the moment, and two external door frames need replacing, having rotted out at the bottom due to water getting into the joints at the bottom of the frame.

    It would seem to me to offer several advantages to hang external doors to open outwards (although i can see the difficulties when they're at the top of flights of steps).

    Weather sealing would be more easily achieved, and the bottom cill could have a nice flashing that stood up behind the bottom of the door. Also the door wouldn't encroach on indoor space when opened.

    And bailiffs would find it much harder to force entry!

    So why do Brits always hang 'em to open in?
  2.  
    1. Wind [Slamming shut or against external reveals causing damage]
    2. Security [Not so easy to gemmy off at the hinges]
    3. Opening into the face of an unsuspecting caller about to knock the door [Though this could be seen as an advantage if they are bailiffs]:bigsmile:
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeSep 7th 2007
     
    Ref: rot in the joints at the bottom of the frame has nothing to with inward or outward opening. This problem is designed into door frames as the mortises allow water to track down into the sill. The addition as a damp course under the frame and the use of cement mortar both exacerbate this. A course of bricks laid on lime mortar and the problem would go away. There could be dpc one or two courses down if you must have one.

    For all inward opening doors I always ensure that the rebate in the bottom of the door which sits over the water bar is not square cut but slightly over cut (uphill inwards) so that water drips off the very outside and cant get across the bottom of the door to anywhere near the water bar. A weather board added to the foot of the door then becomes unnecessary.

    Have a look at a new inward opening door frame noting the water bar detail and follow it -- some suppliers omit the bar or sell it separately.
    •  
      CommentAuthornigel
    • CommentTimeSep 7th 2007
     
    I think its a great idea to knock all unwanted door to door salesmen over by opening a door in their face.
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeSep 7th 2007
     
    What about friends and family?
    • CommentAuthorJohan
    • CommentTimeSep 7th 2007 edited
     
    Posted By: Mike George1. Wind [Slamming shut or against external reveals causing damage]
    2. Security [Not so easy to gemmy off at the hinges]
    3. Opening into the face of an unsuspecting caller about to knock the door [Though this could be seen as an advantage if they are bailiffs
    2. is rubbish (sorry Mike)!! A good quality outward opening door will have security bolts/butts fitted in the back edge. Secondly an inward opending door is easier to kick in for the thief.

    From a fire safety point of view outward opening is better sa it's quicker to get out.:smile:
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeSep 7th 2007
     
    Mike was right Johan.. any door can be kicked in. Outward is less secure generally and very very few outward opening doors have any security hinge side.

    Using the door as a fire exit domestically is a very rare event ( once every 350 years ) so that is a non argument.
    • CommentAuthorJohan
    • CommentTimeSep 7th 2007 edited
     
    Posted By: tonyMike was right Johan.. any door can be kicked in. Outward is less secure generally and very very few outward opening doors have any security hinge side.
    Tony,

    I disagree, An inward opening door is easier to kick in. Yes, you can kick and outward opening door in, but it'll be hard work!

    I agree, An outward opening door without security butts is easy to break into. The securiy butts are cheap and can be retro fitted, so why some manufactures don't fit them beats me though...

    Using the door as a fire exit domestically is a very rare event ( once every 350 years ) so that is a non argument.

    Well, that's a bit like saying I don't need to wear a seat belt 'cus I won't be in more then one car accident every 10 year. Bit thin argument I think...if it can save lives it's a good thing...

    I do agree with 1. and 3. though, perfectly valid. Both types of doors have their advantages and disadvantages, depends on the application I guess.
  9.  
    Johan, looks like we'll have to agree to disagree. My response to Henry was a general one, which seemed to be what was asked for. I stand by No2, though no doubt if you pay enogh money for a locking system any door can be made secure :)
    •  
      CommentAuthorrichy
    • CommentTimeSep 7th 2007
     
    My reasons against.

    1. Wind catching the door and using the reveals of the wall as fulcrum to wrench the hinge screws out of the casing. = I would never have an often used door outward opening for this reason alone.

    2. The lock bar/bolt is exposed allowing jemmying to be more accurately targeted, unless a Euro / storm proof double rebate format is used.

    3. A door should be hung to afford privacy to the room as it is opened.

    4. Impossible to open an outward opening door into huge snowdrift (-;

    5. Defensively, an inward opening door is easier to defend against an intruder.
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeSep 8th 2007
     
    Posted By: tonythe mortises allow water to track down into the sill. The addition as a damp course under the frame and the use of cement mortar both exacerbate this. A course of bricks laid on lime mortar and the problem would go away
    Nice one - applies to windows too, or any timber bearing on masonry, I suppose. Does the porosity of the lime mortar really make such a difference as to outweigh conventional wisdom, convince a building inspector. You wouldn't get away with ditto with cement mortar, for sure.
  12.  
    >4. Impossible to open an outward opening door into huge snowdrift (-;

    I could be wrong, but I've been told that in Sweden doors often open outwards. Curious eh? Any one been to Sweeden?

    (We do seem to be obsessed with security. It'll be back to the bastle house the way some folk are writing.)
    • CommentAuthorBluemoon
    • CommentTimeSep 8th 2007
     
    Both of my porch entrance doors open outwards, wind is a problem not anticipated. Also wet on top edge when left open. I notice that some windows in France open inwards. Any ideas why?
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeSep 8th 2007
     
    Easy to clean. Easy to fit bars to the outside of of little balconyettes.
  15.  
    It makes for easier external shutters as well?
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeSep 9th 2007
     
    That's it because in summer the window can be open and the shutter closed giving ventilation and some light without letting any sunshine in.
    • CommentAuthorAnke
    • CommentTimeSep 9th 2007
     
    Windows opening inwards also allow for fitting of permanent fly screens and tilt&turn operation.
  18.  
    Plays havoc with your ornaments.
  19.  
    Put them outside, on the window-cill, then the rain washes them, and you don't have to dust them. Sorted..
    • CommentAuthorchuckey
    • CommentTimeSep 9th 2007
     
    Having just come back from a skiing chalet in Sweden I can confirm that its door opened outwards. Inward opening doors would dump all the stuck-on snow on to your carpet. If the snow outside is so high you can not barge the door open, how are you going to dig it out?
    P.S. We saw some newspaper clippings showing about 4" of snow in JUNE 2006!
    Frank
  21.  
    >Inward opening doors would dump all the stuck-on snow on to your carpet.

    Brilliant - I hadn't thought of that. I remember that happening the last time we had some decent snow. Last century I think. Thanks Chuckey.

    Maybe if it is really deep they just jump out of the window :)
  22.  
    Maybe they have specially made weather bars which act like snow ploughs...
    • CommentAuthorRachel
    • CommentTimeSep 9th 2007
     
    I think you're all missing the main point: it's all about the shopping. When you get to the door with your 3 bags of shopping (in eco bags of course), you push the door and in you stumble. Can't be doing with putting bags down, opening door, oops, bags in the way, move them etc.. you get the drift?
  24.  
    Trust a woman to think of that.

    (Ducks)
  25.  
    Some good food for thought, guys and girls - though I think the jury's still out.

    Think I'm going to make the back door outward opening, probably a stable door, positioned and hinged such that it will open flat against the outside wall.

    And the front door inward opening, mainly so as not to knock our visitors over...

    Henry
    • CommentAuthorJohan
    • CommentTimeSep 10th 2007
     
    Posted By: biffvernon>4. Impossible to open an outward opening door into huge snowdrift (-;

    I could be wrong, but I've been told that in Sweden doors often open outwards. Curious eh? Any one been to Sweeden?

    (We do seem to be obsessed with security. It'll be back to the bastle house the way some folk are writing.)
    Me, me, me! :wink: (Well since I actually am Swedish...)

    Yes, they are outward opening mainly for traditional reasons (which is why UK door go inwards I guess). A Loooong time ago people used to have two doors with ~100mm gap between them. The one on the inside would open inwards, and the other one would open outwards. The a 1+1 'coupled' door solution was used to impove the insulation. When doors got better the internal door was eventually just left out and you ended up with a single outward opening door.

    Snow drift isn't really an issue beacause the houses aren't build on the ground as here, you normally let the foundations go up half a meter or so. So you get a few steps up to the door. Got to be a lot fo snow to stop you from being able to open the door then...

    Snow drift...in UK? I look forward to seeing that... :shocked:
    • CommentAuthorbiffvernon
    • CommentTimeSep 10th 2007
     
    Fascinating. Thanks Johan.
    • CommentAuthorchuckey
    • CommentTimeSep 10th 2007
     
    Thanks for that Johan, I take the point about the double doors and the raised foundations, which our chalet had. My victorian house, has 3 doors 2 open inwards, one outwards.
    All modern plastic doors open inwards? - at least the ones I've seen.
    Isn't it fascinating that after having hinged doors for 2000 years, we still can't decide which way they should be hinged? Perhaps the most stylish way is to have a portculis.
    Frank
  29.  
    Our 7 year old son, being into castles and all things medieval, is keen for me to hinge the back door at the bottom, draw bridge style.

    Now that would really surprise the visitors...
    • CommentAuthorJoinerbird
    • CommentTimeSep 12th 2007
     
    Tis true, I fixed loads of door frames with rot in the bot...Usually due to .... over rebating at the bottom over the weather bar, pooly fitted storm gaurd threshold strips, poorly fitted weather boards and twisted frame legs...any door can be kicked in ( I should know as I have patched up countless after the police) It just depends on door construction, frame strength and workmanship of course.

    I think that it has been our tradition in housing to build straight off the street or small yards (Im thinking victorian housing here) Thats why they typically open in?? And the shopping bag thing as well....

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