From http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-37220703

Smart energy revolution 'could help to avoid UK blackouts'

Turn me on (and off)

Marriott Hotels has a contract that temporarily turns off its water-chilled air conditioning system at times of peak demand. The water temperature drops so slightly that guests do not notice the difference.

Japanese electronics giant Sharp is devising controls and software to allow solar storage batteries in homes to sell energy back to the grid when the demand (and price) are high. The firm says it expects the system to pay its way without subsidy by 2018.

Aggregate Industries - which makes road materials - is helping to smooth spikes in the grid even though it generates no power at all. The bitumen in giant containers stored near Heathrow airport can be stored at temperatures of between 130 and 185C. If a rise in demand is predicted for later in the day, the company is advised by a computer to heat the bitumen to the maximum temperature, then turn off the power until the demand - and price - subsides. Aggregate is also rewarded for gobbling up extra energy when there is a glut of wind power on the grid. Head of sustainibility, Donna Hunt, said: "I think this is a no-brainer for us because we're saving energy. We're not generating carbon whilst the power is off, and we're making an income for allowing our assets to be used flexibly."

Posted By: tonyNot saving energy

Consider the 'embodied energy' of energy e.g. embodied in constructing and running expensive infrastructure needed to cope with peaks and troughs but lying idle much of the time - compared with 'smart' DSR (demand side response) which makes that unnecessary.

That saving of embodied energy is just as real as any saving in kWh supplied.

Why is Aggregate Industries not using CHP to heat the bitumen?

Posted By: ringiWhy is Aggregate Industries not using CHP to heat the bitumen?

Because that's just an alias for burning fossil, like centralised electricity generation, except the latter has an increasing possibility of being renewable sourced. CHP investment is part of the fossil-dependence lock-in, just as surely as more gas power stations.

If you said 'Why is Aggregate Industries not using wind/solar to heat the bitumen?' then you'd be talking.

Almost smart, not really but at least they give information, but then so would a notice board or a website.

Not vat, it needs to be anther tax, so companies can't claim it back.

Posted By: tonyAlmost smart, not really but at least they give information, but then so would a notice board or a website.

A notice board wouldn't allow variable pricing which, if I understand correctly, French smart meters do. Like daytime/E10/E7/whatever but much more flexible.

I like that. I suppose that makes me a teenager.

Posted By: tony: “Reducing peak demand does not save energy it shifts when the energy is used.”

Strictly you're (almost [¹]) right, of course. However, “saving energy” in the simple sense of reducing the total number of joules delivered to the end users isn't the point; the point is to reduce the damage (economic and environmental) done by converting/harvesting that energy in the first place.

E.g., you could “save” energy on a cold sunny day by closing the curtains to prevent sunlight warming your house beneficially but that would be stupid. Yes, you've “saved” the use of some joules but they were free and harmless anyway.

However, I have had a bit of a rant at DamonHD and friends on the subject:

https://edavies.me.uk/2016/07/grid-intensity/

The argument is that essentially all incremental generation (over what nuclear and renewables are producing, which with the UK grid as it is now (almost?) never match demand) comes from gas so that's the COâ‚‚/kWh hour figure you should be using irrespective of the overall (average) grid intensity. So, yes, it matters less when you use electricity than some people think. But it still matters to some extent.

[¹] Actually, spreading the load more evenly reduces the losses in the grid and distribution networks but that's a fairly minor effect. I²R and all that. 1 amp through a 1 ohm resistor for an hour dissipates 1 watt·hour. Half an amp through the same resistor dissipates 0.25 W and to deliver the same amp·hour would take two hours so the total loss would be 0.5 Wh. Total grid and distribution losses are only about 7% so this isn't going to save a lot.

However, part of the reason that these losses are reasonably low is that generation is often pretty local to use. My guess would be that having less peaky demand would make that easier. I.e., part of the penalty of big peaks might not just be the use of sub-optimal types of generation and bigger I²R losses but also use of sub-optimally located generation.

Posted By: Ed DaviesHowever, I have had a bit of a rant at DamonHD and friends on the subject:

https://edavies.me.uk/2016/07/grid-intensity/" >https://edavies.me.uk/2016/07/grid-intensity/

So should that be kWh/Plate, cup and spoon

Posted By: Ed DaviesOr kgPM2.5 if you prefer. Or is that molPM2.5

Never got my head around the mol, so kg for me.

Posted By: SteamyTeaNever got my head around the mol

It's just a count of things (atoms, molecules, shrews, elephants, whatever). A lot of things. 1 dozen shrews have (typically) 24 eyes. 1 mole of (normal) shrews have a few more than 24x10²³ legs, that is, 4×N_A [¹].

My point, though, was that I have no idea how the harm for small particulates should be evaluated but my guess would be that just looking at the mass would be rather naïve.

[¹] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avogadro_constant

Good news, especially as they seem to doing it with using so called smart meters.

Posted By: JonnyJWto maintain 50Hz on National Grid

At the moment this is pretty irrelevant as the frequency comes about from predictive loads i.e. they start up some extra generation several hours before the peak. This often causes the frequency, and grid voltage to rise before the peak, drop during the peak and rise again as the peak dminishes. That extra generation is is wound down just after the peak to stop over frequency and over voltage (which screws up domestic PV generation).
If we had large scale, two way smart metering i.e. the ability to load shed, then a new predictive algorithm will be needed.
This new algorithm could assume a certain amount of load shedding during peak times (turn those fridges and freezers off, and some thermal storage). This would allow for less capacity to be put online to cope with the peak, but it will not eliminate it.

Sorry, I meant without smart meters