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Green Building Bible, Fourth Edition
Green Building Bible, fourth edition (both books)
These two books are the perfect starting place to help you get to grips with one of the most vitally important aspects of our society - our homes and living environment.

PLEASE NOTE: A download link for Volume 1 will be sent to you by email and Volume 2 will be sent to you by post as a book.

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    • CommentAuthorbella
    • CommentTimeOct 21st 2010
     
    Having learned recently of quite a few double glazed windows and roof panels getting "misted up"/"showing condensation between glass layers" after 5-10 years I am asking myself what the life-expectancy (say the average and 10% loss rate) actually is. Trying to talk to one or two manufacturers suggested that this may be a delicate issue for the trade. What is the experience generally on this topic? I would hate to install expensive and well made windows only to be repairing them every 10-12 years! Nor very green for one thing. Maybe secondary windows with good seals and frame insulation done internally has a place along with moveable insulated shutters etc
  1.  
    15 years, whole house, no failures. We did go for "Quality" tho. IMHO if you go for the "we can do your whole house for £1500" merchants, you are asking for trouble.

    Anyway, a lot of the cost is in the frames - replacing the sealed unit is not really a big deal, unless they are super large.

    Tim
    • CommentAuthorsquowse
    • CommentTimeOct 21st 2010
     
    10 years is the normal guarantee in plastic or fully-drained wooden frames. the edge seal fails and will let in water vapour eventually causing condensation.
    i make frames expecting them to have the units changed in their lifetime.
    it will generate a lot of waste, but i suppose the glass can be easily recycled once separated from the spacer. i wonder if the council/waste contractor do this though?
    for your typical house with smallish windows i think there is definitely a good case for the idea that good secondary glazing, curtains, shutters, proper seals on openers etc; as being greener even if the U value is worse.
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeOct 21st 2010
     
    Posted By: squowsei suppose the glass can be easily recycled once separated from the spacer
    I've heard that that is nearly impossible - you have to cut the bonded glass edge and spacer off - how do you do that?
    • CommentAuthoran02ew
    • CommentTimeOct 21st 2010
     
    you can cut through the spacer with a biscuit jointer but you will nacker the blade. i dont think its really worth it.
    • CommentAuthorchuckey
    • CommentTimeOct 21st 2010
     
    38 DG panes. Large south facing ones (2) failed at year 17, since then 7 more have failed (all aspects) have failed by now - year 27.
    I am on a different project now but when I get more time I'll replace them my self, like the first two. My panes are small enough to handle by myself :-)
    Frank
    •  
      CommentAuthorrogerwhit
    • CommentTimeOct 22nd 2010
     
    You can split units easily enough on a diy basis - it's only gunk after all - there's no mystique involved, just time. Glaziers aren't likely to bother at the present time, it's quicker for them to cut new glass. But what if you dismantle a unit? Can you diy its re-manufacture? Surely possible if you can source the materials. But you may have to lodge something in the vacant window whilst you're at it.

    In other words, the INDUSTRY is not currently motivated to recycle, but individuals may be.
    •  
      CommentAuthorjoe90
    • CommentTimeOct 22nd 2010
     
    My units failed in year 12 on the south side but at year 17 still fine on the north side. I have been told this is due to thermal expansion on the south side causes early failures.
    • CommentAuthoran02ew
    • CommentTimeOct 22nd 2010
     
    i was told to avoid dark coloured spacer bars as they expand and break the seal over time?
  2.  
    rogerwhit wrote
    You can split units easily enough on a diy basis - it's only gunk after all - there's no mystique involved, just time. Glaziers aren't likely to bother at the present time, it's quicker for them to cut new glass. But what if you dismantle a unit? Can you diy its re-manufacture? Surely possible if you can source the materials. But you may have to lodge something in the vacant window whilst you're at it.

    This is quite correct, I have made 2g, 3g and 4g from scratch. The only problem with fixing modern units is getting the exotic gas filling (actually this is not possible as a diy fix).
    Peter
    • CommentAuthordocmartin
    • CommentTimeOct 23rd 2010 edited
     
    Is there any substantial difference in the manufacture of large units for commercial buildings? Having units fail high up in a commercial building would be very expensive.
    I have often wondered about the long term costs of some projects featured in 'Grand Designs' which use very large glazed units. The number of manufacturers for such units seems to be very limited and delivery times are often a problem. On a more modest domestic scale how can one check that the d/g or t/g units are being made to a high standard? Possibly this would be more relevant with UK manufacturers rather than established major manufacturers in Scandinavia.
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeOct 23rd 2010
     
    Posted By: docmartinestablished major manufacturers in Scandinavia
    Mainly places like Poland - that's where the 'Scandinavians' sources their glass - and the frames form Latvia, Belorussia etc. All good - much better to make the stuff near the forests, and ship the product across Europe, than to import crap timber and make it up 'locally'. Not sure where the glass raw material comes from, but certainly no virtue in making either sheet glass or units 'locally'.

    Come the revolution, then we will indeed have to make up our own multipane windows locally, incl max use of salvaged glass - these won't be sealed units, so there'll be much mopping of condensation for the eco-peasant of tomorrow.
    • CommentAuthorbella
    • CommentTimeOct 23rd 2010
     
    I am not at all sure that "the exotic gas filling" really can stay between the panes for very long. Movement out in exchange for air must be going on all the time.
  3.  
    Bella, surely only with seal failure and condensation will let you know when the seal has failed?
    • CommentAuthorbiffvernon
    • CommentTimeOct 24th 2010
     
    It's quite a tricky question because the technology has changed over the years. The materials and methods used 20 years ago may not be the same as those in a unit bought today.

    I had some fail after about a year. They lasted just a little longer than the firm that made them! I've others that have lasted 20 years.

    So far I've not had a complaint from any customer that I've supplied with the type of units I've been using for the last six years.
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeOct 25th 2010
     
    Does this article explain some of the problems adequately.http://www.thewindowman.co.uk/misty-wood.htm
    • CommentAuthorbella
    • CommentTimeOct 25th 2010
     
    SteamyTea, that is a v.helpful article. I wonder how many householders or even installers know these things never mind know how to apply the principles in their "refurbishments" of windows. All the other comments very helpful too. My reason for doubting the longevity of filling with argon or what ever is that gases find their way through materials and interfaces without the need for "holes" in the ordinary sense, just as pentane finds its way out of insulation. My guess is that exchange with the gases in the air is going on long before the "condensation" issue raises its ugly head.
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