Home  5  Books  5  GBEzine  5  News  5  HelpDesk  5  Register  5  GreenBuilding.co.uk
Not signed in (Sign In)

Categories



Green Building Bible, Fourth Edition
Green Building Bible, fourth edition (both books)
These two books are the perfect starting place to help you get to grips with one of the most vitally important aspects of our society - our homes and living environment.

PLEASE NOTE: A download link for Volume 1 will be sent to you by email and Volume 2 will be sent to you by post as a book.

Buy individually or both books together. Delivery is free!


powered by Surfing Waves




Vanilla 1.0.3 is a product of Lussumo. More Information: Documentation, Community Support.

Welcome to new Forum Visitors
Join the forum now and benefit from discussions with thousands of other green building fans and discounts on Green Building Press publications: Apply now.




    • CommentAuthorAraucaria
    • CommentTimeAug 16th 2015 edited
     
    I did my own solar hot water system five or six years ago. It was a slightly unusual system as the panels are on an outbuilding about 50 metres from the house, and there are buried pipes between the outbuilding and the house.

    The system was fine until about a year ago, when a small leak developed somewhere (of course) in the buried pipes. A week or so ago this became a substantial leak (I was able to put about 20 litres of water a minute into the system, which was leaking out at that rate).

    The buried pipes are those twin flexible stainless steel pipes, about 3/4", with a robust insulation round it. However at the time (perhaps now too?) these expensive pipes were available only in lengths of 20m: so there are a couple of joins in both the flow and the return pipe. I'd guess one of these has failed. These special compression joints are a bit fiddly anyway, though I did pressure test both pipes before I buried them.

    My question. Rather than have to dig it up again in the future, are there any substitutes for these S/S pipes, available in longer lengths?

    The problem is that solar thermal systems can reach 110C or more for material lengths of time (eg after a power cut in summer!), and most plastic pipe seems to be rated up to 90C or at most 95C.
    •  
      CommentAuthorcrosbie
    • CommentTimeAug 16th 2015 edited
     
    Consider having a buffer store near the panels, into which you circulate the 30-150C water via a solar coil (maintaining a small volume of solar fluid).

    From this buffer, you pump 40-90C water via plastic pipe - using a motorised mixing valve (of inflow + store) to limit the return temperature to 90C, and a cheap solar controller to only pump if >40C and hotter than receiving store and receiving store <90C.
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeAug 16th 2015
     
    +1 might be able to thread a 15mm through the leaking ss pipe or soft copper either way it mifgt save digging

    Did you clean out all the flux?
    • CommentAuthorowlman
    • CommentTimeAug 16th 2015 edited
     
    I think they're all compression fittings tony. Generally solder isn't used in ST.

    Personally I'm not too fond of the compression fitting for SS corrugated solar pipe. They rely on silly little fibre washers for a fit. Not a good design IMHO.
    • CommentAuthorEd Davies
    • CommentTimeAug 16th 2015
     
    A buffer store might also make the system more efficient in weak sunshine by batching up the transfers through the long pipes allowing smaller losses.
    •  
      CommentAuthorcrosbie
    • CommentTimeAug 16th 2015
     
    Another idea, is to use the working SS pipe for the hot return, and add a plastic pipe for the <90C outflow.

    If you wanted to be really funky you could use just the single working SS pipe, and via large expansion vessel or header tank, and valves in the right places, push cool water and receive hot water. You could probably co-opt a drain-down control system to do this.
  1.  
    Could you not just dig down to where the joints are, install a drainag chamber around them (for easy access should they leak in future) and then fix the compression fittings?
    • CommentAuthorAraucaria
    • CommentTimeAug 18th 2015
     
    These are all very helpful suggestions, particularly the idea of using plastic pipe for the return flow: obviously that would be much less than 100C. Threading a smaller diameter plastic pipe through might well be a good idea, when I find out which pipe is leaking (I hope to do so shortly). But the s/s pipe has an inside diameter of a fraction under 17mm, so the largest pipe that could go through would be 16mm: and the inside diameter would be reduced to 14mm: if my maths is right, a 45% reduction in cross-section.

    It's quite true the special compression fittings for the s/s pipe are fiddly: you have to use a circlip and the nut supplied to make a flange on the pipe where you've cut it, and then the fibre washer. Unfortunately I don't know where the joins are, and they may be in different places for the flow and return pipes, so a limited dig isn't possible. I tried listening for the leak, the way the old Water Board experts used to do it, but totally failed.

    I also like the idea of a buffer store - I do have room for this - and I wonder if it could be made really simple, with the store itself vented to avoid the highest temperatures in the store (nothing over 100C - it would boil). I could then run PEX pipes back from the buffer store to the house: this seem to be OK near 100C (for example, Upanor claim theirs is safe at 95C, with occasional peaks up to 114C). I will keep thinking about this.

    Thanks again.
    •  
      CommentAuthorcrosbie
    • CommentTimeAug 18th 2015
     
    With the time and budget, I'd definitely go for the vented buffer store - which I would have installed in the first place :-)

    It might even be more efficient to combine it with a heat pump to keep the subterranean temperatures closer to the ground temperature (say 10C out, 40C back), but I'd have to defer to a specialist for this one.
    • CommentAuthorEd Davies
    • CommentTimeAug 18th 2015
     
    It'd be interesting to know what the working temperatures and flow rates were before this fault appeared and therefore what the losses in the pipes were under different solar conditions.
    • CommentAuthorJC48
    • CommentTimeAug 18th 2015
     
    Hi I used these in the past - very effective - http://www.leakbusters.net/

    Once the join has been found then a manhole access could be the answer

    good luck james
    • CommentAuthorivorycelt
    • CommentTimeOct 5th 2015
     
    Your pipe is most likely DN16 which is 16mm ID. No i dont think you would be able to push another pipe inside - at least not without an aeroplane profile nose to deal with all those convouloution ribs.
    The joints are fiddly yes, but no big deal really - just make sure you get the apx 2.5mm thick circlips and not the cheap 1.5 thick. Check you have crushed a nice sealing flange and use 2 thick washers - good to huge temps/pressures.
    I myself have installed a similar system - ie 120 tubes 50mtrs away from building (installed at 70' for steady daily average gain over extended annual period) and yes intermediate open vented buffer was the solution - and pex-al-pex pipes (availabl;e up to 500 mtrs!) No antifreeze needed underground - works great.
    Pex ratings are for suits in brussels and in reality can take higher temps, especially with zero pressure.
    The technical limits/ failure is the delamination of layers or plastic softening and this is first an issue at the ends, at the compression joints - especially if brass/ metalic.
    Dave Solar Dave - tech at TMS
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeOct 5th 2015
     
    Posted By: ivoryceltDave Solar Dave - tech at XXX
    Getting a bit close to advertising.

    http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=289&page=1#Item_1
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeOct 5th 2015
     
    But if only mentioned once then probably very useful information.
  2.  
    Come off it Steamy. Excellent post, good unbiased info, practical guidance, info directly related to thread. Only weird because it was late. Getting close you said - fine, but still a long way off.....IMO, especially as how much store a reader puts into someone's opinion is related to their opinion of the poster's competence. I learnt something of direct relevance to my situation - did you know there are 2 thicknesses of washers.....
Add your comments

    Username Password
  • Format comments as
 
   
The Ecobuilding Buzz
Site Map    |   Home    |   View Cart    |   Pressroom   |   Business   |   Links   
Logout    

© Green Building Press