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Green Building Bible, Fourth Edition
Green Building Bible, fourth edition (both books)
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    • CommentAuthorteach_glas
    • CommentTimeJul 17th 2019 edited
     
    Hi all,

    I have an old Irish cottage with thick walls (400mm) made of mass concrete (no DPC). We are doing a complete renovation including new roof with extended eaves to connect EWI and roof insulation.

    Can you guys foresee any problems with the following approach:


    - 200mm of EPS EWI (the external wall currently has a painted concrete render finish).

    - I plan to dig French drains and backfill with Leca clay aggregate.

    - breathable lime plaster inside (no internal insulation)

    - New Insulated slab inside

    - New windows placed within insulation layer


    If I lay a new slab inside with plastic underneath, does this mean all the dampness under the floor will travel to the (breathable) walls?

    EWI installation is hideously expensive in this country, can it concivably be done via DIY?
    I'm experienced in CAD so have a set of accurate drawings, plenty of time. Bear in mind its a simple rectangulatar cottage. I've been reading the INCA best-practice document and it seems it may be possible if you spec your new windows with thin aluminium sills, also taking extreme care and planning in the small details.

    The render finish will have to be done by professionals.

    Any help would be much appriciated!





    J.
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeJul 18th 2019
     
    Sounds easy to DIY , foam on 200 thick sheets, plastic or nylon insulation fixings through mesh and thin breathable high tech render 4 to 6mm thick,

    Mass concrete will be a cold bridge down into the ground, I would EWI down as far as you can, definitely below ground level.

    If the house is warmer than the ground moisture will be trying to go from the house into the ground!

    I would put my damp course on top of the new concrete slab and it will then act as a vapour barrier too. I put insulation under slabs, 200 mm of it is nice with floating floor or screed on top
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeJul 18th 2019 edited
     
    Agree - all your ideas plus tony's comments - ideal.

    If the existing paint on the concrete is really well adhered, you can fix the EWI with cementitious adhesive, not bother with the mechanical fixings. In UK, regional reps for the EWI materials cos, like Parex, will come and look at your project and recommend the right variant of their product range; also come and give basic guidance/demo on fixing and finishing. Note that these cos supply all the materials except the insulation boards itself - get that from insulation wholesalers.

    Not sure what tony means about "plastic or nylon insulation fixings through mesh" - AFAIK the mesh goes on much later than the EWI fixing.
  1.  
    If you have mass concrete walls I don't really see the point of breathable lime plaster 'cos the concrete isn't going to breath enough to make it worthwhile. The EWI is going to protect the outside from driving rain. You don't mention ventilation - worth considering MVHR. If this was installed it would (IMO) make the lime plaster even less useful. What is the existing internal plaster / render? If it is acceptable or just needing some repairs I don't see the point of hacking it all off. A recent thread here discussed 2 small MVHR units rather than 1 bigger unit and more ducting. Two small units worked out significantly cheaper and retro-fitting ducting can be a pain.

    As Tony said take the EWI below ground level, easy to do if you are putting in french drains around the building.

    A quick dip into a U value calculator gave a U value for the walls (20mm plaster, 400mm concrete, 200mm EPS) as 0.18 with no condensation issue flagged.

    DIY EWI is perfectly feasible. Over here the adhesive is cheaper than foam and quite easy to use. It is worth buying a stick mixer from one of the DIY sheds rather than using a mixer/stirrer on an electric drill. Doing the render coat DIY is no big deal if the EPS goes on flat. A 10mm notched float to gauge the render going on, lay on the mesh and then float over with a normal float. For the top coat the particles in the acrylic render gauge the thickness so no problem there either. If there is an unobtrusive bit of wall to test your skills then try it out and if you don't like the result get the professionals.
  2.  
    Posted By: fostertomNot sure what tony means about "plastic or nylon insulation fixings through mesh" - AFAIK the mesh goes on much later than the EWI fixing.

    Correct. Its EPS boards then mechanical fixings then fill the dents made by the fixings (with adhesive) then render and mesh then primer then thin film render in the colour of your (or the LA planning dept.) choice
    • CommentAuthorbhommels
    • CommentTimeJul 18th 2019
     
    EWIstore do a tool to recess the fixing heads into the EPS, and sell dowel caps to cover the recess. Reduces thermal bridging from the fixings and provides a much more even surface for the basecoat to go over.

    https://ewistore.co.uk/shop/eps-router/
    https://ewistore.co.uk/shop/thermo-dowel-cap-for-eps-polystyrene/
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeJul 18th 2019
     
    'No DPC' shouldn't matter. The EPS going continuous down into the ground is almost non-wicking. With french drain, water table should be lowered, so draining water from under the slab and around the foundation walls.

    What floor does the house have already? With 'coffer dam' of perimeter insulation, the need for underfloor insulation is at least reduced if not eliminated, if the present floor is otherwise serviceable and/or to avoid more disruption.
  3.  
    Posted By: bhommelsEWIstore do a tool to recess the fixing heads into the EPS, and sell dowel caps to cover the recess. Reduces thermal bridging from the fixings and provides a much more even surface for the basecoat to go over.

    https://ewistore.co.uk/shop/eps-router/" rel="nofollow" >https://ewistore.co.uk/shop/eps-router/
    https://ewistore.co.uk/shop/thermo-dowel-cap-for-eps-polystyrene/" rel="nofollow" >https://ewistore.co.uk/shop/thermo-dowel-cap-for-eps-polystyrene/

    The router and caps are designed for use with metal mechanical fixings. I have always used plastic mechanical fixings which have a minimal cold bridge which IMO would make the router and caps redundant.
    https://ewistore.co.uk/shop/plastic-mechanical-fixing-180mm/
    • CommentAuthorbhommels
    • CommentTimeJul 18th 2019
     
    For 200mm EPS, requiring 260mm fixings, I found the plastic pins inadequate. About 1 in 6 failed due to the plastic pins being too "springy" and not managing to deliver the force needed to split the anchor end. Hammering harder only damaged the pin heads. I ended up using quite a few metal pins, which worked fine.
  4.  
    @hhommels, it's not just me then! I found the same problem even with 210mm fixings, for 150 EPS. I think it may be a question of getting what you pay for. I have never had a problem with Ejot fixings, but have had with cheaper 'un-branded' ones. I think our failure rate was worse than 1 in 6! Snipping the ned off helped a bit without seeming to affect pull-out resistance, but it was very annoying.
  5.  
    I have found that using a good drill is critical when drilling for the plastic pins and also making sure that there is no brick dust left in the holes to artificially reduce the diameter of the drilled hole
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeJul 18th 2019
     
    Infinitely preferable to not need to use mech fixings!
    • CommentAuthorMike1
    • CommentTimeJul 18th 2019 edited
     
    Posted By: teach_glasI have an old Irish cottage with thick walls (400mm) made of mass concrete (no DPC).

    Modern concrete wasn't commonly used until the 20th century, but as far as I know even then it wasn't common in old cottages. So just checking that you 100% sure that it is mass concrete - rather than something like rammed earth or cob, which can sometimes look superficially similar (http://suzumori.com/research/rammed-earth/), was often used at 400mm+ thickness, was commonly used in Ireland (http://www.tara.tcd.ie/bitstream/handle/2262/85150/Earthen%20buildings%20in%20Ireland%20-%20Jimenez%20and%20O%27Dwyer.pdf), but which would require different treatment...
    • CommentAuthorteach_glas
    • CommentTimeJul 19th 2019 edited
     
    Thanks so much for all the replies, plenty of food for thought :bigsmile: Especially re the help with DIY EWI, thats great news, it will be a substantial saving for me.




    Posted By: Peter_in_HungaryIf you have mass concrete walls I don't really see the point of breathable lime plaster 'cos the concrete isn't going to breath enough to make it worthwhile. The EWI is going to protect the outside from driving rain. You don't mention ventilation - worth considering MVHR. If this was installed it would (IMO) make the lime plaster even less useful. What is the existing internal plaster / render? If it is acceptable or just needing some repairs I don't see the point of hacking it all off. A recent thread here discussed 2 small MVHR units rather than 1 bigger unit and more ducting. Two small units worked out significantly cheaper and retro-fitting ducting can be a pain.



    Thanks so much for looking at the figures regarding my wall, very helpful. Its just plaster on the inside (not in great condition). Are you assuming the French drains will solve the rising damp inside the house completely? What happens to any damp issues that remain if using standard plaster inside?
    Yes I am considering a heat recovery system that includes a de-humidifier, I understood this approach would cause any latent dampness to be evaporated from the walls (if they are breathable)?

    Posted By: fostertom
    What floor does the house have already? With 'coffer dam' of perimeter insulation, the need for underfloor insulation is at least reduced if not eliminated, if the present floor is otherwise serviceable and/or to avoid more disruption.


    Almost no floor! very thin concrete on dirt! I will definitely be removing it and digging down

    Posted By: fostertomAgree - all your ideas plus tony's comments - ideal.

    If the existing paint on the concrete is really well adhered, you can fix the EWI with cementitious adhesive,

    If the paint is a bit flakey I guess it would need to be stripped off and/or fixings used?
    • CommentAuthorteach_glas
    • CommentTimeJul 19th 2019
     
    Posted By: Mike1
    Posted By: teach_glasI have an old Irish cottage with thick walls (400mm) made of mass concrete (no DPC).

    Modern concrete wasn't commonly used until the 20th century, but as far as I know even then it wasn't common in old cottages. So just checking that you 100% sure that it is mass concrete - rather than something like rammed earth or cob, which can sometimes look superficially similar (http://suzumori.com/research/rammed-earth/), was often used at 400mm+ thickness, was commonly used in Ireland (http://www.tara.tcd.ie/bitstream/handle/2262/85150/Earthen%20buildings%20in%20Ireland%20-%20Jimenez%20and%20O%27Dwyer.pdf), but which would require different treatment...


    Thanks Mike, its a 1920's cottage and for sure its mass concrete - dusty, poor quality mass concrete at that, with some stone rubble thrown in for good measure!
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeJul 19th 2019 edited
     
    If it were my EWI I would do rounded corners everywhere 75 or100mm radius to all external reveals to make it look different from run of the mill homes. I would make a “rasp” out of a load of old saw blades that runs up and down the face of the corners leaving a pile of polystyrene shavings and a perfect rounded corner.

    I fixed my windows -3g- to the outside of the reveals overlapping by 60mm on the sides and slightly less on the head and sill. Angle brackets or drilled through the frames.

    Head needs a positive drip . ie head slopes up hill towards the house unless well under the eaves.

    Sills from Europe with end caps.

    Lime plaster is fine inside, no downside.

    Is ground level below floor level all round outside?
    • CommentAuthorCWatters
    • CommentTimeJul 19th 2019
     
    Have you got the budget for an MHRV system?
    • CommentAuthorteach_glas
    • CommentTimeJul 19th 2019 edited
     
    Posted By: tonyIf it were my EWI I would do rounded corners everywhere 75 or100mm radius to all external reveals to make it look different from run of the mill homes. I would make a “rasp” out of a load of old saw blades that runs up and down the face of the corners leaving a pile of polystyrene shavings and a perfect rounded corner.

    I fixed my windows -3g- to the to the outside of the reveals overlapping by 60mm on the sides and slightly less on the head and sill. Angle brackets or drilled through the frames.

    Head needs a positive drip . ie head slopes up hill towards the house unless well under the eaves.

    Sills from Europe with end caps.

    Lime plaster is fine inside, no downside.

    Is ground level below floor level all round outside?


    Cheers Tony, just looking at your website,great resource, I may do something similar for my house:smile:

    Thanks for the idea about rounding the corners, never would have thought of that. Regarding the windows, what do you mean "to the mm on the sides and slightly less on the head and sil"?

    Yes ground level is about 50-80mm lower outside, but can be improved when laying new slab (we have high ceilings).
    • CommentAuthorteach_glas
    • CommentTimeJul 19th 2019
     
    Posted By: CWattersHave you got the budget for an MHRV system?

    Not really just yet... do the systems vary much price-wise?
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeJul 20th 2019
     
    Sorry about the odd bit, now edited, basically my window frames are larger than the openings and sit outside the reveals in my insulation layer.

    You should wrap insulation round the outside of the frame onto the face of the window a bit, mine did more outside than inside as they opened in.
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeJul 20th 2019
     
    That still leaves a bit of a thermal bridge, only a window-frame-depth of insulation between outside air and inner blockwork, which can be improved on by insulation similarly abutting the inner face of the frame e.g. an insulated plasterboard lining to the blockwork opening's reveals.
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