General: Just a thought

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- CommentAuthordave123
- CommentTimeJul 11th 2007
I sometimes listen to all the rhetoric given out by our wonderful politicians. I hear cries of, â€œwe must reduce carbon emissions by X amount in the next 10 yearsâ€, we should all use energy saving light bulbs, thermal energy, renewable energy, solar energy, installation and the list goes on. It would be extremely easy to legislate, that every new build incorporated these features (there is legislation on new buildings I know but not far enough in my opinion).

Thinking out-of-the-box, what in reality would actually happen if all this wonderful talk was put into action?
I for instance (apart from my ongoing discussion on solar water heating) have done everything I can to reduced my electric and gas bills by about three quarters of the norm (just a rough estimate).
Could you imagine how devastating that would be to the government coffers, if every household in Britain were to do the same?
Three quarters of their tax on energy (oil, electricity, and gas) would disappear. And that is only the start.
God forbid that we should get a really efficient bus and rail service that is cheap and affordable that would keep us out of our cars (I travelled on the Belgian rail service last year, and I couldn't believe how clean and efficient it was, even the air conditioner had air freshener incorporated) think of the tax they would lose on fuel, I'm not sure how much tax they charge on fuel nowadays, but I bet it's a massive amount.

â€œLet Britain lead the wayâ€ I wonder why I don't believe them?

Perhaps I'm being cynical. If all the above were to happen, we perhaps, wouldn't be able to afford to go to war quite so often.
Maybe they could go back to the daylight tax

I will let others discuss the merits of alcohol and tobacco taxes (if we tax it high enough people will stop smoking and drinking, do we really live on the same planet?) To name just a few.

That is it I have had my rant for today.

Dave
- CommentAuthormoogaloo
- CommentTimeJul 11th 2007
Because of the kyoto agreement the more carbon we cut the more carbon credits can be sold to poluting countries. The mechinism is there to make it financially desirable to cut carbon emissions.

Plus the tax system is reviewed every 6 months
- CommentAuthorChris Wardle
- CommentTimeJul 11th 2007
I think you are making a good point there Dave. On a more generaI level, I don't believe that in the real world you can grow an economy without increasing energy consumption, we never have done historically. All this "green growth" talk is misleading spin to keep the public on board. Neither do I believe we will be able to increase non-fossil energy production faster than either fossil fuel depletion rates or the 3% pa reductions that will be necessary to curb global warming, particularly as we haven't invested in nuclear power.

The effect of this on government revenues will be negative as it will be for households and the corporate sector. Once we pass Peak Oil, I would guess we will be able to substitute coal and gas for a while but Peak Energy may not be too far behind and then we will see how the global economy responds. I can only see a prolonged depression being the result which, when you consider the amount of household and government debt we are carrying, not the mention the hundreds of billions of pounds worth of PFI obligations and unfunded state and private pension liabilities, has got to be cause for concern.

When countries have massive debts that they can't repay because they aren't generating the growth and hence the savings to do so, the route out is high levels of inflation which erodes the real value of the debt. I think this is where we are heading, perhaps it has already started. The way for an individual to protect him or herself against inflation is to invest in hard assets, like gold, silver, oil, gas, other minerals, forestry, agricultural land and avoid bonds, cash and any fixed interest securities.

Perhaps we will emerge from the other side with something better than the wasteful, consumer societies we have now and which the Chinese and Indians are unwisely trying to emulate?
- CommentAuthordave123
- CommentTimeJul 12th 2007
Good post Chris

"The way for an individual to protect him or herself against inflation is to invest in hard assets, like gold, silver, oil, gas, other minerals, forestry, agricultural land and avoid bonds, cash and any fixed interest securities. "

About 30 years ago when energy efficiency wasn't really an issue (at least in the general publics perception) I built my first solar panel. I also had a conservatory built on the back of the house using the base as a heat sump, diverting the heat from the apex into the sump. After the initial investment (in hard labour and sweat) it continues to work for 30 years, and I assume is still happily working today.

As you probably guess, I see energy efficiency as a hard assets. I remember many years ago old age pensioners dying because they could not afford to heat their homes. I swore then, that I would do everything in my power to stop that happening to me.

Regards Dave
- CommentAuthorChris Wardle
- CommentTimeJul 12th 2007
Couldn't agree more Dave. I've had an ambition for a while to build/renovate a low energy home for my family partly because I see it as a great investment opportunity, i.e. spend the cash up front, while it still has some value, and take away the burden of large utility bills for the rest of our lives. Same could be said for spending a bit more to get a property with a decent sized garden so food can be grown at home. Won't save much money at the moment but take a look at soft commodity prices, i.e. corn, soy beans etc, they are all rising rapidly and can't see this trend reversing any time soon.
- CommentAuthorbiffvernon
- CommentTimeJul 12th 2007
No need to worry about our government's loss of tax revenue when we change the light bulbs. The money we save will be spent on something else which is also taxed. Unless, of course, we save more, but that, as has been pointed out, is lost through inflation.

Unfortunately, in a post-peak oil world, any energy savings we make will not help the climate change problem as the saved fuel will be burnt elsewhere.

Doom and gloom :(
- CommentAuthorDominic Cooney
- CommentTimeJul 13th 2007
Does anyone have any thoughts on the possibility of the government "commandeering" or compulsory purchasing argricultural land, or any land for that matter, in this post apocalyptic future?
I am imagining a scenario where one scrimps and saves all ones life to buy some land to grow food, biomass for energy, or to put up a wind turbine etc.
only to have your hard assets seized for the 'greater good'

or by that stage will government rule, law & order, and therefore society break down into the sort of anarchy that requires a big fence/dog or armed guards to protect your veg plot?
- CommentAuthorChris Wardle
- CommentTimeJul 13th 2007
Have you read "The Long Emergency" by James Kunstler? Gets into these sorts of issues. He suggests that small market towns will be the best places to live. Places where there are enough people to support services like doctors and schools but not too big that they become lawless without any sense of community. I agree and will be looking for plot or renovation opportunity in small town with decent garden plot and fierce dog (I'll be waiting for house price to fall a bit first of course).

The US Government seized gold and silver bullion in the 1930's by Presidential decree which made it illegal for the people to hold bullion. The law which allowed this was whipped through Congress without the representatives being allowed time to read it. They weren't even given a copy of the bill! Of course the Fed kindly printed some paper dollars in exchange, which I'm sure the people were grateful for.

When we see HMG gathering increasingly authoritarian powers to itself and the relentless increase in CCTV and other forms of monitoring people, it does worry me. It gets through by using the terrorism excuse but we didn't need it to fight the IRA did we? If the Government of this country became suddenly much more authoritarian as a result of some disaster or event, they would have most of the powers and infrastructure in place to run Britain as a police state.

I wonder what will happen when fuel shortages really start to bite? Public clamour for action and the rise of a "strong man"? Chavez was elected but doesn't govern like a democrat. Neither does Putin. You like to think it could never here but the Germans probably would have said the same thing in the 1920s (6 million unemployed later and they elected Hitler).

Looking on the bright side, if you own land and are using it productively and offering your surpluses to the open market, what would be gained by confiscation? On the other hand, I could see some of these country estates being broken up and the parkland going under the plough if we get desperate for food supplies.
- CommentAuthordave123
- CommentTimeJul 16th 2007
Good post Chris

I was listening to the news last night, and they were talking about paying people that recycle the most rubbish, and fining those that don't.
I have a slight problem with that, in so much as, everything in this house is cooked from scratch, (no packaging) what we don't eat, we either feed to the wormery (kitchen scraps) or burn on our wood burner. Consequently there is very little left out for Dustman/recycle collectors.
Would that mean I was going to be fined?

I guess I'm being cynical
- CommentAuthorChris Wardle
- CommentTimeJul 16th 2007
Wouldn't it make more sense to take rubbish collection out of the council tax funding equation and just charge people for it? Just weigh the wheely bin as it is emptied and you get a bill once a quarter. Put padlocks on them to stop the neighbours topping it up for you.
- CommentAuthordave123
- CommentTimeJul 17th 2007 edited
Chris
I have just re-read this thread, and somehow seem to have missed your earlier comments.

"I've had an ambition for a while to build/renovate a low energy home for my family partly because I see it as a great investment opportunity, i.e. spend the cash up front, while it still has some value, and take away the burden of large utility bills "

As you've probably read in my previous posts, I entirely agree with you. At the moment my utility bills (as I have mentioned previously) are currently running at Â£41 per month, and that is without solar water heating. The above figure does not mean that we are permanently wearing thermals throughout the winter, in fact the house is always kept at 68Â°.

Although I carried out major alterations to the house, the outlay was relatively small, as there were no labour costs (having done everything myself).
But, the point is, no matter what happens to price of energy in the future we will still be low end users.
As an aside, the house can function quite happily, without either gas or electricity. and For what it's worth we, also have a water well.
- CommentAuthorChris Wardle
- CommentTimeJul 17th 2007
Sounds good Dave. I'm currently forking out Â£100 a month for gas and electric but it will be someone else's energy millstone soon as I have just accepted an offer on the place! Will be seeking out more economical accomodation from here on.

What's wrong with thermals by the way? I'm in them all winter. Put the insulation where it is most effective I say. Â£40 for a couple of decent sets, best money you'll ever spend!
- CommentAuthordave123
- CommentTimeJul 18th 2007
"I'm in them all winter"

Well I hope you change them more than twice a year, :-).

Glad you sold your house. Good hunting, and hope you find something to your liking.

Regards Dave
- CommentAuthorbiffvernon
- CommentTimeJul 18th 2007
A society that requires wheely-bins to be padlocked is beyond the pale.
- CommentAuthorbiffvernon
- CommentTimeJul 18th 2007
The derivation of 'beyond the pale' is associated with paling, stake or fence. To live beyond the pale is to live outwith the protection of the community's fence or boundary. There may in fact be two distinct regions where wheely-bins may not need to be padlocked. Within the pale, that is within a gated community, where only good, honest citizens live in protected conviviality with like-minded folk who would never think of adding to their neighbours' bin. That would involve walking down the garden path and up the next one. Why bother when affording the wheely-bin charge is no hardship? And then there is the region far beyond the pale, in 'Myrtle-walk' (see The History of Polindor and Flostella, John Harington 1657), where live the likes of dave 123 with wormeries and woodburners, and have so little rubbish that wheely-bins are not needed.

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