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Green Building Bible, Fourth Edition
Green Building Bible, fourth edition (both books)
These two books are the perfect starting place to help you get to grips with one of the most vitally important aspects of our society - our homes and living environment.

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    • CommentAuthorEd Davies
    • CommentTimeJan 3rd 2013 edited
     
    Currently PV panels are pretty cheap. E.g., Navitron are doing Scheuten 235 W panels at a tiny smidge over 51p/W, incl VAT, so less than 43p/W after a new-build VAT reclaim. MCS approved Kinve panels of the same size are a little more expensive at about 57p/W incl. Maybe they'll get a bit cheaper but I can't help thinking the price can't get much lower unless the design is changed radically (stick-on thin-film or something).

    At £100/m² they're already cheaper than windows by area, I think. Windows are similar technology but with more oxygen and less doping in one of the layers and no backing plate :-).

    So, it seems to me that if you can use them immediately then there's no point in waiting - buy now. If, on the other hand, you can't use them for a while it's a difficult question when to buy. Delaying might save a small amount of money but it's entirely possible that the current glut will dry up or EU anti-dumping threats will be acted on or something so the price would go up resulting in bigger losses.

    Anybody got any up-to-date thoughts on what prices are likely to do this year?
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeJan 3rd 2013
     
    Posted By: Ed DaviesAnybody got any up-to-date thoughts on what prices are likely to do this year?

    Plot the historic prices and see where we are on the curve. That will tell you as they are no different from any other manufactured goods. Generally though most technology inflates less than the general inflation rate and the UK was a very small market with high 'other costs'. Hence windows costing 100 quid a metre square.

    All the other stuff, the inverter, cabling, switches, connectors, brackets and bolts will probably go up with inflation, as will labour (though that was pretty cheap in the boom).
    • CommentAuthorjamesingram
    • CommentTimeJan 3rd 2013 edited
     
    Be nice if these product got to a similar price per kW
    http://www.schueco.com/web/uk/architekten/solarstrom_und_waerme/products/photovoltaics/fassadenmodul_prosol_tf.
    Cheap 4kW all-in kit price is around £3000-3600 inc. vat
    lets say on south facing UK roof it produces 3500kWh/year @ 14p = £490 pa
    Pays for itself in 8ish years if you use all available produced energy . System should last 25 years+ ( maybe new inverter required)
    This would be outside FITs
    4kWp installs via MCS fitter around £6K

    I cant see install prices dropping much lower if kepted inside MCS
    Panels must have an minium price that there drop to, not sure how close we are to that.

    what price do schools/hospital/public building pay for thier electric kwh ?
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeJan 3rd 2013 edited
     
    Posted By: jamesingramwhat price do schools/hospital/public building pay for thier electric kwh ?
    About 7p/kWh, changes the economics somewhat, probably why they don't do it much.
    • CommentAuthorjamesingram
    • CommentTimeJan 3rd 2013 edited
     
    Seems on such location where all available power can be used PV cheaper than grid electric.

    25 years (estimated sys. life) x 3500kWh = 87500kWh x 7p = £6125
    then you've got FITs as a bonus currently at 15.44p per kWh generated and 3p for 50% of generated for deemed export. So £14,822.5 if you installed now and they did stick to promise to pay for 25 years :wink:

    I should really get some more up on my roof asap :smile:
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeJan 3rd 2013
     
    Take away the £7100 interest and for something like a hospital you would have to include lost opportunity, which may be a life.
    Does go back to electricity being too cheap.

    Would they allow the 3p/50% export on a commercial installation as they can easily use all they produce?
    • CommentAuthorDarylP
    • CommentTimeJan 3rd 2013
     
    Buy PV soon!
    When California introduce their FiTs, all the 'surplus' PV panels languishing in Europe will head over to the US...

    Cheers
    :smile:
    • CommentAuthorEd Davies
    • CommentTimeJan 3rd 2013 edited
     
    DaryIP, thanks - that was the sort of thing I was wondering about. They seem to already have some sort of FiTs scheme with the most recent tweaks I could find not seeming overly dramatic:

    http://www.businessgreen.com/bg/news/2213548/california-governor-jerry-brown-green-lights-renewable-energy-push

    Is something else in the pipeline?
    •  
      CommentAuthorted
    • CommentTimeJan 3rd 2013
     
    FiTs on PV is only for 20 years now, but the export price is up slightly at 4.5p.
    • CommentAuthorEd Davies
    • CommentTimeJan 3rd 2013
     
    Posted By: SteamyTeaPlot the historic prices and see where we are on the curve. That will tell you as they are no different from any other manufactured goods.

    Actually, I think they are very different from other manufactured goods because the market, and therefore the price, is so dependent on the whims of a relatively small number of governments. After a steady decline over the years there's been a crash over the last year or so mainly due to the reductions of the German FiT rates.
    • CommentAuthorwookey
    • CommentTimeJan 3rd 2013
     
    And most/all of the manufacturers are losing money hand over fist currently with a lot of amalgamation going on. According to reports I read, which I have no way of verifying, only govt support (in China) is keeping many of them going. It's a cut-throat business full of predatory pricing by the big players who want to be the last ones standing. So it seems likely that panel prices won't be going down any (much?) further for a time whilst things shake out.

    It's a huge and growing market so there will be rewards for those that survive. There are about 15 industry web sites where you can read all about it.

    Decent windows (3G timber) are more like £300/m2 BTW. I guess plastic 2G is something like £100/m2
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeJan 4th 2013
     
    Posted By: Ed DaviesAt £100/m² they're already cheaper than windows by area, I think.

    Posted By: wookeyDecent windows (3G timber) are more like £300/m2 BTW. I guess plastic 2G is something like £100/m2

    To make the comparison really work, though, you have to add the cost of the wall or roof that is behind the PV panel, since the window also fulfills that function. I don't know what that cost is offhand.
    • CommentAuthorEd Davies
    • CommentTimeJan 4th 2013
     
    Posted By: djhTo make the comparison really work, though, you have to add the cost of the wall or roof that is behind the PV panel, since the window also fulfills that function.

    The point of the comparison, rather flippant though it was, was to get an idea of the base cost of manufacturing and shipping the panels. It was not comparing the value to the structure of the house.
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