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Green Building Bible, Fourth Edition
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    • CommentAuthorbrogie2805
    • CommentTimeJan 31st 2012 edited
     
    Hello again, still having bother with the MVHR and have rang Environmental Health to call out to inspect the dwelling for their opinion on the air quality as the mould and smell situation has gotten worse. Having received the commissioning report from the MVHR installers I was surprised by some of the ventilation rates as they didn't seem to comply with the Building Control Regs for Northern Ireland. For example a utility room ventilation rate in the regs reads 30 l/s, however the MVHR report reads 17 l/s?! I have tried to calculate the total inlet ventilation required for the house using the following:
    Ventilation rate (m3/h) = Air change rate (/h) x Room Volume (m3). I have calculated that the total inlet ventilation to be 618 m3/h, however the MVHR report shows it to be 457.2 m3/h. Having researched the MVHR unit technical document it shows that the unit on full power to run at 460 m3/h. I'm no ventilation expert but this seems to be a big discrepency. I have been waiting for over a week now to see the design calculations the installers used in determining the unit that has been installed, however I am met with cagey answers. I will try and post some pictures of the mould situation to get your knowledgeable opinions as they're always greatly appreciated.
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeJan 31st 2012
     
    Continuous ventilation rates can be much lower than extract fan rates as all the time ventilation does more good, keeps the air inside nice.

    0.6 ach sounds OK to me but there should be boost facility of say 1.0 -- some people run at lower rates than 0.6 I think I do 0.5 during the day and 0.4 other times with 0.6 only sometimes, showers, cooking, more people here.

    Paul usually knows the answers better than I do

    You would be better to measure the actual ventilation rates as bends in the ducts, undersized ducts will slow down air flows and it sounds like yours are well low to me.
  1.  
    As Tony says, the extract rates required for MVHR are lower than those required for discontinuous extract fans.

    Mould growth usually requires a moisture source & a cold wall or other section of the building fabric to provoke condensation.

    What's the pattern to the mould growth? Is it just one room? Is that room heated? Does it generate more moisture than other parts of the house? Is it as well insulated as other parts of the house? Is the building fabric still drying out?

    David
  2.  
    And how many m3 is your house? You should buy a humidity monitor?
    • CommentAuthorbrogie2805
    • CommentTimeJan 31st 2012
     
    The house is 1132.22m3 and we have humidity monitors throughout the house, readings vary from 55% to 83% and worse case sometimes 95%. Installer sent me the design calculations today as shown below:

    Specification:- Design Actual (on Boost)
    1. Minimum High Extract Rate: 191 m³/hr-¹ 464.4 m³/hr-¹
    2. Minimum Low Ventilation rate: 162 m³/hr-¹ 457.2 m³/hr-¹
    (Includes double occupancy in 5 No bedrooms)
    3. Whole Building Ventilation Rate: * 453.6 m³/hr-¹ 457.2 m³/hr-¹
    (Area of habitable space 420 m²)
    *Please note infiltration of 151.2 m³/hr-¹ excluded, as per air-permeability ≥ 5 m³/m-²
    hr-¹

    Does this make sense?
    •  
      CommentAuthorDamonHD
    • CommentTimeJan 31st 2012 edited
     
    .
  3.  
    Posted By: brogie2805*Please note infiltration of 151.2 m³/hr-¹ excluded, as per air-permeability ≥ 5 m³/m-²
    hr-¹


    If your air leakage is that bad I'd question the need for an HRV system at all :(

    Paul in Montreal.
    • CommentAuthordocmartin
    • CommentTimeJan 31st 2012 edited
     
    But the air leakage is only that bad when when the wind is 20mph+!. Only joking.
    Seriously, I have seen Paul comment, previously, that the whole house ventilation rate should be 30m3/person with 10L/s for a living room inlet etc. Others have suggested that a large airy house with few occupants is not subject to the same tight adherence to regs as a smaller home with many occupants.
    In my own refurb - moderately improved 124m2 1930 chalet bungalow, 2 adults- I manage very well on a whole house ventilation rate of 70m3/hr; regs require a minimum whole building ventilation rate of 134m3/hr (with no allowance for infiltration). Your rate is exactly right for the minimum value of 0.3L/s per m2 of floor area; again not allowing for infiltration.
    Your house is very large with a lot of moisture of construction. Have you adopted any of the suggestions to put your room temperatures up and/or use dehumidifiers for a while?
  4.  
    Part F of the Building Regs says you need 0.3 ACH/hr of the 1150m3 volume which comes to about 350m3/hr which your unit seems to be doing.
    The other equation you need to satisfy is that you need about 25m3/hr/person, so how many people are living in the house?
    Is the house freshly plastered or newly built? If so, leave the windows open for a while on a frosty morning when the air is really dry to aid drying out.
    Have a look here at the Dew Point calculator to figure out the condensation temperature http://viking-house.co.uk/dewpoint-calculator.html
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeFeb 1st 2012
     
    Have you given us any actual measured ventilation rates yet? or only theoretical ones?

    Air leakage of 151 is presumably at 50 Pa ? -- This is uncontrollable = zero on calm days and higher but not 151 on windy days.
  5.  
    Your designed MVHR rates seem reasonable. What are you achieving in practice?

    Are you heating the whole house to aid drying out? What's the average temperature of the air extracted from the house, i.e. what's the temperature at the heat exchanger extract terminal?

    David
    • CommentAuthordocmartin
    • CommentTimeFeb 1st 2012 edited
     
    Brogie 2805,
    so is your MVHR running at maximum the whole time ( to give the minimum whole house ventilation rate)?
    If so, I would expect it to be rather noisy. Assuming that you have 8 outlets for incoming air that would be an average of approx 15.5L/s per outlet. At that level I am sure that draughts would be noticeable; they certainly would be on my 125mm air valves.
    Is there a brisk airflow at the outlets and noticeable air movement at a distance of 1metre?
  6.  
    Getting my head around the figures and been checking the temperatures before and after the heating coil.
    The 457.2m3/hr as quoted on the commisioning cert. is the HRV unit running on boost, the unit running at standard as quoted on the commisioning cert. is 280.8m3/hr. The installers have the unit set on a week timer to run at standard and at medium settings. Am I right in thinking that what docmartin is saying is that our HRV unit should be running at boost level all the time just to give us the minimum amount of ventilation required?
    This is the temperatures on the handset with the boiler stove pumping, and suppling the heating coil:
    outside temp = 3 celcius
    extract air temp = 6 celcius
    supply air temp = 27 celcius
    exhaust air temp = 14 celcius
    supply air temp after rotor = 13 celcius.
  7.  
    Do you mean the following?

    outside temp = 3 celcius
    EXHAUST air temp = 6 celcius
    supply air temp AFTER HEATING COIL = 27 celcius
    EXTRACT air temp = 14 celcius
    supply air temp BEFORE HEATING COIL = 13 celcius.

    If so then these numbers look reasonable for a house with no heating or heating to only part of the house. Is the heating coil the only means of heating? Are you heating some parts of the house & not others?

    In general, when using whole house heat recovery ventilation you should heat the whole house to the same temperature. This is especially important when the house is drying out.

    David
  8.  
    I wrote it exactly according to the technical booklet supplied with the unit, there are two wood burning stoves, one 10kw (8kw to boiler which goes to the heating coil and 4 towel rails), and the other is a 5kw stove. We have 1500w oil filled rads in the parts of the house not being used to aid heating. The coil is supposed to be able to deliver warmed air at 40 celcius at all inlet valves however the temps in the bedrooms vary from 10 to 18 celcius?
  9.  
    What's the temperature in the house? What is the Humidity these days?
    You need 350m3/hr to meet part F and you have 280m3/hr which is probably ok.
    Open the windows for 20 mins tomorrow and give it a good airing.
  10.  
    Temp varies throughout the house Viking from 20 to 10 degrees, humidity varies also from 55 to 85%, Environmental health carried out inspection today and was of the opinion that the ventilation running at standard level is not adequate for the house. He commented that it would make sense to have a machine of a higher spec that can ventilate the house at a standard level rather than running a lower spec machine flat out to provide the required ventilation. He also attributed the mould to the lack of ventilation.
    • CommentAuthordocmartin
    • CommentTimeFeb 1st 2012 edited
     
    Brogie 2805,
    Part F regs in England for larger properties seem to result in a disparity between Whole Building Ventilation rate based on bedrooms and occupancy with an infiltration allowance subtracted, based on volume, versus the minimum rate based on internal floor area.
    The latter gives the value of 453m3/hr which overrides the former at 117m3/hr. In practice, my experience has been that with low occupancy and a careful lifestyle, ONCE YOUR HOUSE IS DRY, your MVHR may be up to the job running at moderate speed.
    My rate of 70m3/hr is actually OFF on my 350m3/hr maxm unit; this is meant for background ventilation when the house is unoccupied e.g. holidays. The larger unit also gives a better pressure/flow characteristic curve; my refurb forced tortuous runs of smaller ducts than I would have wished i.e. higher resistance to overcome in the ducts. We rarely ever switch to a higher rate; this includes the times when we open the MVHR cooker hood.
    Regards, Martin.
    • CommentAuthordocmartin
    • CommentTimeFeb 1st 2012 edited
     
    Brogie 2805,
    to add to the above, I assume your MVHR is at least SAP App Q compliant with a spf (specific fan ratio ) of 1W/L/sec power consumption. The best can get as low as 0.5 W/L/s. You will be using up to 280W on normal rate and 460W on boost; a good motive for reducing to the minimum that suits your lifestyle, ONCE YOUR HOUSE IS DRY.

    My daughter moved back into her extensively extended and refurbed home in November 2009; the Winter of '09-'10 was bad. There was a thread opened about the increased incidence of condensation in roofs which generally have become colder over massively increased insulation plus some have poor ventilation. Her original low pitch roof (which was left in situ with added mid-level ventilating tiles) had no ventilation at the eaves; the mineral felt sarking was dripping onto the insulation all over the roof; I ran 2 large fans in the loft space all winter. Nick Parsons told me that this was due to moisture of construction; he was right because the worse winter of '10-'11 ( -17oC ) caused no condensation at all. The MVHR I fitted kept the living areas completely free of any condensation, even at -10oC, running at a rate of 21L/s with internal floor area 80m2 approx. The air quality was always remarkably fresh.
    Rgds, Martin.
  11.  
    Posted By: brogie2805This is the temperatures on the handset with the boiler stove pumping, and suppling the heating coil:
    outside temp = 3 celcius
    extract air temp = 6 celcius
    supply air temp = 27 celcius
    exhaust air temp = 14 celcius
    supply air temp after rotor = 13 celcius.

    Posted By: brogie2805I wrote it exactly according to the technical booklet supplied with the unit, there are two wood burning stoves, one 10kw (8kw to boiler which goes to the heating coil and 4 towel rails), and the other is a 5kw stove. We have 1500w oil filled rads in the parts of the house not being used to aid heating. The coil is supposed to be able to deliver warmed air at 40 celcius at all inlet valves however the temps in the bedrooms vary from 10 to 18 celcius?
    If the above temperatures were correct then the MVHR unit would be extracting air from the wet rooms at 6 Celcius & supplying air to the heating coil at 13 Celcius, while exhausting air at 14 Celcius towards the outside. This just isn't possible in a correctly configured & commissioned system. If this is what the controller says then either the temperature sensors are cross wired or the ducts are cross plumbed. For the moment, lets just assume the technical book got it wrong.

    Posted By: brogie2805Temp varies throughout the house Viking from 20 to 10 degrees, humidity varies also from 55 to 85%, Environmental health carried out inspection today and was of the opinion that the ventilation running at standard level is not adequate for the house.
    It may be that the MVHR is not quite up to the job, but that is not why you have damp & mould problems.

    If the air at the extract terminal of the MVHR is at 14 Celcius then the average temperature of the air extracted from the wet rooms is 14 Celcius. In other words, the only air stream which is carrying moisture out of your house is at 14 Celcius. Air at 14 Celcius can carry around 50% less moisture than air at 20 Celcius. In addition, if this average is achieved by warm moist air at 21 Celcius mixing with air at 10 Celcius then you will get condensation problems in the ducts which could lead to mould growth.

    So, for the moment, I would forget about the MVHR & look at ways in which you can get an even 20 Celcius through the whole house by moving the oil filed radiators to the coldest rooms & running stoves continuously on low if necessary. On warmer drier afternoons, open all the windows for 20-30 minutes & then re-heat the house to 20 Celcius until the damp starts to dissipate or the summer arrives.

    If you're unable to get the whole house to 20 Celcius then move your focus to the heating coil. What temperature/flow rate of water does it require? What air flow rate does it require? Are the air supply terminals balanced? Are the air supply ducts insulated? Are all the ducts inside the heated envelope of the house? Do any of them pass uninsulated through the rooms which are at 10 Celcius?

    As long as you keep the whole house at 20 Celcius then you're unlikely to have problems with the MVHR. If you only heat some parts of it then whole house heat recovery ventilation is not the right solution.

    David
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeFeb 2nd 2012
     
    I think it is saying outdoor air = 3C; air leaving unit and going out of house 6C; air coming in after heat exchanger 13C heated to 27C and going to rooms; air extracted from rooms 14C --

    14C is too cool and the house should be warmer, is it insulated?

    What is the air temperature as it leaves the outlets in the rooms? (ir thermometer on grille) are the ducts running in unheated spaces and not insulated properly?

    etc...
  12.  
    Posted By: tonyI think it is saying outdoor air = 3C; air leaving unit and going out of house 6C; air coming in after heat exchanger 13C heated to 27C and going to rooms; air extracted from rooms 14C
    Agreed.

    David
    • CommentAuthordocmartin
    • CommentTimeFeb 2nd 2012 edited
     
    PS to comment 14 hours ago.
    In the experience,quoted above, the house was heated to 20oC; David is right.

    At this time of the year the windows will only be opened for relatively short periods; when they are the incoming air will cool the house too. Surely the MVHR flow rate should be increased while you are dealing with the problem via extra heat etc?

    2 out of 4 bedrooms (those in the roof of my chalet bungalow) are unheated, except for frost watch, but ventilated with MVHR. The heat from downstairs keeps them fairly constant at 15 to 16oC. There is NEVER a hint of condensation and RH levels are good.
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