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Renewable Energy: 4.00kWp pv system price

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  1.  
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeMay 8th 2012
     
    What is the going rate for 4.o kWp solar pv system now?
    • CommentAuthorGavin_A
    • CommentTimeMay 8th 2012
     
    depends what you're after, but somewhere between Ă‚ÂŁ7.5-8.5k is reasonable around here, more like Ă‚ÂŁ10k for sanyo / panasonic etc

    possibly needs updating a little, but should be ok as a rough guide http://www.leeds-solar.co.uk/price-guide
  3.  
    Same down in the SE, all over I think , perhaps with the odd lot still trying to catch people out with higher prices and the occasional one lower.
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeMay 8th 2012
     
    Yes, around the 8k for a simple install around here.
  5.  
    Hi,

    Some of the kitchen and bathroom and flooring people ie DXXXXT flooring (you’ll guess if you know them) etc etc etc with the very very cheesy “Julian Clarey” voice over are doing 2k for £3995, 3k for £4995, and 4k for £5995 fitted. It’s exactly the same ad as they use for the bathrooms and floorings. Driving north east / south Scotland the other weekend heard it on a few local stations – same ad.

    Cheers, Mike up North
    • CommentAuthorGavin_A
    • CommentTimeMay 9th 2012
     
    we've got some interesting photos of some of those types of installs, overhanging the gutter, cables all over the shop, panels not being levelled / being wonky on the roof etc.

    The mess those types of companies tend to make of the electrics in kitchens and bathrooms really doesn't bode well for the state of the electrics internally either. I've heard of some companies installing to the immersion heater cable to save them having to run a new cable to connect to the grid as well.

    Conversely you'll probably get the same problems from a lot of the highest priced shiney suit salesman type companies as well, plus getting utterly ripped off for the pleasure.
  7.  
    Hi,

    That wasn’t a recommendation more of alert – I agree I think the original question should have included the premise of “properly”; there are some dreadful examples in all the trades.
    What’s seen as esoteric or for specialist interest soon become commoditised and it’s sold by volume, and installed with no interest. There’s no simple solution that’s just the way it is. The problem is that these are often once only events so you don’t get any build up of experience, and sometimes when the install is dreadful those paying for it don’t even realise its awful, overpriced, poorly specified etc etc. Its just point and fire and done, and people judge on price. Ask around for recommendations? – people don’t want to admit they spent a lot and it turns out bad, does any body admit they brought something based on a fake celebrity voice over ad. Knock on people’s doors asking how much they spent.

    Cheers
    Mike up North
  8.  
    There are reputable installers round here (south west) who can install 4kW of solar for Ă‚ÂŁ8,500 using top quality European panels
    • CommentAuthorCWatters
    • CommentTimeMay 9th 2012
     
    Seems worth reminding people the FIT rate goes down again soon. I forget to what? 13p or something like that.
  10.  
    On exactly that subject, this is what I wrote to a colleague today, who was bemoaning the reduction:

    ''4kwp, S-facing, generating a likely minimum of 800kWh/kWp p.a. = 3200kWh p.a.

    3200 x 0.136 = 435.20 (generation)
    1600 x 0.031 = 49.60 (export)
    1600 x 0.15 = 240.00 (value of elec not imported)

    Total p.a.: 724.80

    8500 installed cost / 724.80 = 11.73 years. After that, 13 years @ 724.80 p.a. (+ infl) ‘free’.

    Note that at the prices prevailing when FiTs started, 11 and 12-year paybacks were common even with 41.3p!!''

    Nick
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeMay 9th 2012
     
    when does FIT drop to 13p?
  12.  
    The other way of looking at it, is as an annunity (assuming you dont move house). Your figures give an inflation proof annuity rate of about 8.5%. Now that's quite attractive if you are 60+ and retiring (and have the spare 10k)

    Tim
    • CommentAuthorjms452
    • CommentTimeMay 9th 2012
     
    We had quotes in the last fortnight in north herts for (4kWp spread over two different aspects (SW and SE) all had schuco fixings:

    Company A: Ă‚ÂŁ8300 canadian solar mono + SMA/Ă‚ÂŁ9300 sharp + SMA
    Company B: Ă‚ÂŁ8600 canadian solar poly or mono+ SMA
    Company C: (not a quote - an estimate): Ă‚ÂŁ13300 Romag + SMA

    Company C claimed that there were lots of con artists out there selling panels that wouldn't work in this country - their's are the only pannels that work just on daylight apparently when it is cloudy (then he struggled to produce the panel data sheet and even when he did couldn't explain why it did mention this critical detail)!

    Is company C correct and am I mad to be going with company A and Canadian solar (I know they are made in china)?
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeMay 9th 2012 edited
     
    Posted By: jms452Company C: (not a quote - an estimate): Ă‚ÂŁ13300 Romag

    :rolling:

    It is the Romag that made me laugh.
    • CommentAuthorGavin_A
    • CommentTimeMay 9th 2012
     
    surely you don't actually need to ask that question do you?

    company C are lying con merchants of the worst type, please please please report them to the REAL code here

    http://www.realassurance.org.uk/consumers/how-to-complain

    Romag use exactly the same technology as Canadian Solar, and only cost a relatively small amount more per panel than canadian, due only to them being UK made not chinese.

    There are thin film panels that do generate slightly more in both overcast conditions and at higher temperatures, but we're talking 5-10% more, and they're not suitable for domestic because they need much bigger roof areas per kWp.

    These were blatant lies they told you to try to con you out of Ă‚ÂŁ4-5k on top of the price you should be paying for that system, and they'll be ripping others off day in day out until they're struck off the REAL scheme / their installers are struck off the MCS scheme, so please shop them asap.
    • CommentAuthorGavin_A
    • CommentTimeMay 9th 2012
     
    alternatively, I'll travel anywhere in the country to install a romag + SMA daylight solar PV system for the bargain price of just Ă‚ÂŁ11k.... ;)
  17.  
    Tony asked: ''when does FIT drop to 13p? ''

    In July 2012 it will go down, and 13.6p is one of the possibles. If I remember rightly, there is a table of 3 possible figures in a sort of sub-consultation doc somewhere (lost the link!) of which 13.6p was the lowest. Can someone find the link?
    •  
      CommentAuthorted
    • CommentTimeMay 10th 2012
     
    DECC proposed 3 trigger levels for the various possible tariffs from 1st July. These all relate to the capacity installed between 3rd March and the end of April 2012.

    A. Less than 150 MW - 16.5p
    B. 150 to 200 MW - 15.7p
    C. Over 200 MW - 13.6p

    This is from their consultation document. http://www.decc.gov.uk/assets/decc/consultations/fits-review/4309-feedin-tariffs-scheme-phase-2a-consultation-paper.pdf

    We should know the actual figures tomorrow, as that is the 40 day deadline for Parliament to review the changes before they can be implemented on 1st July.
    • CommentAuthorwindy lamb
    • CommentTimeMay 10th 2012
     
    200MW - 13.6p; That's one big roof.
    •  
      CommentAuthorted
    • CommentTimeMay 10th 2012
     
    Sub 50kW systems installed in that period was 77.7 MW per the MCS data published by DECC.

    http://www.decc.gov.uk/assets/decc/11/stats/energy/energy-source/3803-weekly-solar-pv-installation-and-capacity-.xls

    Data for over 50kW systems for the period has not been published, but there can't be much.
    •  
      CommentAuthorted
    • CommentTimeMay 10th 2012
     
    Yeah, thanks windy. Those tariff threshold figures are for the total installed MW for the whole of the UK - so yes it is a big roof.
  22.  
    Posted By: Nick Parsons
    ''4kwp, S-facing, generating a likely minimum of 800kWh/kWp p.a. = 3200kWh p.a.

    3200 x 0.136 = 435.20 (generation)
    1600 x 0.031 = 49.60 (export)
    1600 x 0.15 = 240.00 (value of elec not imported)

    Total p.a.: 724.80

    8500 installed cost / 724.80 = 11.73 years. After that, 13 years @ 724.80 p.a. (+ infl) ‘free’.

    Note that at the prices prevailing when FiTs started, 11 and 12-year paybacks were common even with 41.3p!!''


    Another way to look at it: as I dont happen to have Ă‚ÂŁ8.5k spare to pay for the PV, I will have to extend the mortgage. Borrowing Ă‚ÂŁ8.5k over 25 years at long-term average mortgage rates (5% above inflation?) costs about Ă‚ÂŁ600pa, according to http://www.bbc.co.uk/homes/property/mortgagecalculator.shtml

    So even at the reduced FIT numbers, the PV would still cover its own loan repayments and return Ă‚ÂŁ120pa from day 1 - not a goldmine, but I get to save the planet (a tiny bit) at zero cost and with a modest income.

    If only I had a s-facing roof....

    By Nick's numbers, if there was no FIT, there would still be income of Ă‚ÂŁ300pa in export and saved import. Thats enough to repay a loan of about Ă‚ÂŁ4000 capital. Any prospect that installed cost of PV will fall that low in future?
  23.  
    For what its worth we have a supplier advertising in the local SW paper for 4Kw at Ă‚ÂŁ7k inc VAT fully fitted, no idea of the quality.

    We do have a South facing roof and we are doing an extension so now is a good time to get more from the bank anyway. But I would rather be sure of the return with the FIT. I just don't know how likely I am to get my "half stone half cob walled" house up to Band D.

    I tried the SAP calcs myself and came out as 9\100 (Band G) but there is clearly some opportunity to "tune" this. I I now see that the PV can be part of the Band D claculation so Ill recalc but it still seems unlikely, or has anyone else managed it with solid walls without wall insulation?

    Andrew
  24.  
    Posted By: WillInAberdeen Any prospect that installed cost of PV will fall that low in future?


    Given the relatively poor efficiency of present PV modules one would think that there is plenty of scope for game changing technological advances in the future. But that view is based entirely on hope rather than anything else!
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeMay 11th 2012
     
    There is a theoretical limit to what PV can convert, about a third, so as we now have modules that can convert up to 20%, that is 2/3rd of the way there, so not much scope for density improvement really. Most of the improvements has been though better manufacturing and quality control in recent years.
    Thing is that the real limiting factor in most domestic installations is limited suitable roof area and cloud cover.
    • CommentAuthorBeau
    • CommentTimeMay 11th 2012
     
    ''4kwp, S-facing, generating a likely minimum of 800kWh/kWp p.a. = 3200kWh p.a."
    I think you may do a fair bit better than these figures if you are in a favourable spot

    These are the actual figures for my parents system.

    Angle 15degrees due south with no shading.

    3.96 kW Romag with Sunnyboy 3800

    1 year 4049 kWh

    This is on the west side of of Dartmoor (not exactly the sunniest place) at 220 meters above sea level.
    •  
      CommentAuthorDamonHD
    • CommentTimeMay 11th 2012
     
    ST: the (28%?) limit that you are describing only applies for single-bandgap devices. We can already beat it (expensively) with multi-junction devices in production, without solar concentrators (so could be effective in the UK).

    But I don't think that 'efficiency' is a particularly useful measure when considering free fuel unless you mean kWh/m^2/year or kWh/Ă‚ÂŁCAPEX/year, ie have severely constrained space.

    Even on my tiny house I generate twice our current typical electricity consumption over the course of a year.

    Rgds

    Damon
    •  
      CommentAuthorJSHarris
    • CommentTimeMay 11th 2012
     
    <blockquote><cite>Posted By: DamonHD</cite>ST: the (28%?) limit that you are describing only applies for single-bandgap devices. We can already beat it (expensively) with multi-junction devices in production, without solar concentrators (so could be effective in the UK).

    </blockquote>

    Being, perhaps, a little pedantic, the limit ST refers to is the power in the optical part of the spectrum of sunlight. Only a bit less than 1/3 of the ~1000 W/m² power of full sunlight is visible light, the majority of the remainder being infra red, with a small part ultraviolet and beyond.

    If we can develop PV cells that work down into the IR, then we should be able to extract a lot more power per m², but this challenge is proving pretty tough when it comes to engineering practical cells for use in panels. The idea is that the top layer of the cell absorbs all the visible light and turns it into electrical power and the lower layers absorb the longer IR wavelengths.
  29.  
    Beau wrote:

    "''4kwp, S-facing, generating a likely minimum of 800kWh/kWp p.a. = 3200kWh p.a."
    I think you may do a fair bit better than these figures if you are in a favourable spot "

    I agree. I would rather err on the pessimistic when I am spouting in public!
    • CommentAuthorjamesingram
    • CommentTimeMay 11th 2012 edited
     
    Posted By: WillInAberdeen Any prospect that installed cost of PV will fall that low in future?


    if you DIY and can get round the vat , then it's not far off already

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