Hello all,

I am a building surveying student and thought it wise to join!

Was wondering if anyone could tell me if there are any repercussions if a building (non-domestic) gets a bad rating on their EPC?

Thanks

Thanks Terry.

One other thing, are EPC's compulsory now or not? I'm finding it difficult to find out as I'm not sure if what I am reading about EPC's is up-to-date or whether it was from before they were made non-compulsory.

I would like to know about non-domestic EPC's as well as domestic.

Thanks

I am now required to have an EPC done for each unfurnished flat that I let out on behalf of owner. Prospective tenants now look at the flat, realise what a great flat it is for the socially responsible rent that we charge and then turn it down because it only scores a C rating.....

only joking. No prospective tenant has ever taken the blindest bit of notice of the EPC. However, it perhaps makes me and landlords a bit more conscious of the fact that our old housing stock is not as thermally efficient as it might be.

Posted By: dicksterNo prospective tenant has ever taken the blindest bit of notice of the EPC

What %age increase in fuel prices would change that? How soon will that come?

What's the EPC calculation based on...?

(Yes I know its energy performance.... I mean is it a glorified SAP or what?)

J

Posted By: Mike George2. Wall type [stone, cavity etc][u-values assumed by age]
3. Roof type, floor type diito point 2

so garbage basically then...?

J

To get a pukka copy you have to do the training as far as I can see. I have been trying to get a demo copy for some time, have downloaded a few but all I have seen are limited in that some functions are inactive without some form of registration [which I haven't done]. See also discussion here http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=1830&page=1#Item_18
List of approved RdSAP software and providers here http://projects.bre.co.uk/sap2005/pdf/RdSAP2005_9-80_software.pdf

If you manage to get a pukka copy let me know where from please

Just had an EPC on our house.
It's listed grade 2* and earliest part is 16c. So it's not easy to make changes.
Twenty two years ago when it was grade 2 I improved it. I insulated all external walls on the inside, all floors and all roofs.
I did the wall insulation by bonding insulation to the wall so that it mirrored the original wall surface and did not use any beads on corners so you can't tell it's been insulated. Some of the ceilings follow the roof pitch and all are insulated. There's huge thermal mass in the internal walls. Heating is mostly by wood stove and natural convection, we have two small rads on for part of the day. An oil boiler does hot water and central heating. We have low energy bulbs in the rooms we use. There are six bedrooms, three bathrooms and two kitchens.
Point of all this. According to the assesor it's an F with the potential to be and E. No account taken of insulation which cannot be seen so only the wool in the loft counts. Heating bill apparently enormous but we live here and it's small. We burn 5 tons of wood a year and hardly any oil but the EPC says oil is our primary heating so we need £3500 of oil a year. The lack of a roomstat was noted, but in a house this size where would you put it! Only two of us live here now so we only heat and light the rooms we use and the best way to find out how much this costs is to look at utility bills.
The assesor told me he could only include what he could verify and as I have no certificates he ignored all the insulation I fitted. I almost made holes in the walls so that he could see it but then that would only prove that part of that wall was insulated. I'd have holes everywhere!
Fortunately nobody seems to attache any importance to what is a pointless and misleading exercise when applied to houses built before Building Regs.
When I was insulating walls and roof on our new house the Building inspector didn't want to see it. The assesor told me that it would be assesed on the Building Regs current when it was constructed. Who knows if the insulation is there or not? It may have been fitted badly. In fact I've gone way above what's required but there's no certificate so it's not there. I've taken photos but a photo can be manipulated.
The best way to ascertain the energy consumption of a building is to look at the bills. The best way to calculate heat loss is to measure thermal radiation on the outside.
EPC's have more to do with job creation than energy saving.

I forgot to mention - if you have wood as your heating source - your environmental rating will jump a few bands as it's based on CO2/m2 rather than £/m2. Wood isn't treated as carbon neutral (due to transport & processing) - but it's not far off it. The wood will also mean your £/m2 will be a lot lower than with oil! However - even if you get your wood for free, it will be given a cost of circa 2.6p kwh - as not everyone has access to free wood.

<blockquote><cite>Posted By: CWatters</cite><blockquote><cite>Posted By: SimonH</cite>Seriously - you need to complain to the assessors accreditation scheme. The contact details should be on the bottom of the certificate.

The assessor has to satisfy themself that the insulation is present, and make a record on the site notes of how they justified including it.
</blockquote>

That doesn't seem to be happening for HIPs.. A friend of mine is house hunting and reports that the energy survey in almost all the HIPs he's seen so far have been a waste of time. He says they never seem to know if there is cavity wall insulation or not and frequently give two figures. As this is pretty fundamental why isn't it mandatory for the surveyor to find out by visual inspection with a boroscope if the owner can't prove it?</blockquote>

Your friend must be misunderstanding the report. There are two figures - one which lists the house as is. I.e. No cavity insulation. The "potential figure" which is the other one shows how much of a saving you'd make if you put it in, there's no means for an assesor to say "it might be there".

You don't need to use a boroscope to spot it - you can looks for a) regular drill holes b) fluff or beads inside the meter box c) around waste pipes d) in the attic at the eaves (With a little dentists mirror thingy) e) Best of all - a CIGA 25 year guarantee certificate.

Part of the requirements for HIP was not to have intrusive testing as part of the requirement as people would be even more p'd off.

PS If anyone has problems with EPCs I'm very interested as I'm involved with a volunteer group that has a seat on the EPC stakeholder group with CLG. So I'm partly responsible for trying to make EPC's a success.

@david

Thing is..... You get what you pay for. How much did the EPC cost you?

Yeah an assessor should take more time and consideration and use common sense and discretion. However, remember anyone can do this course relatively easily. You don’t have to spend years in training/university. Its a few hours basically. When an average EPC costs around £50 and a building survey around £1000 then this suggestes the depths that the assessor will go to. A mortgage valuation costs around £250 and there often just "drive by's"

The prices DEA's are being paid on average work out around £32. They get around £40 per EPC, after tax, accreditation fees and lodgement fees they get around £32, then you take the time, petrol etc to get there and do it. Then you’ve got to put it into the software at home (can take upto about an hour if complicated).

All in all, there is no incentive for the DEA, they get treated like rubbish, laughed at on places like this, moaned at by owners and walked all over by the training providers and accreditation schemes.

The ONLY winners in this are the training providers that missell this to hopeful people that dream of a change of career. They have saturated the market so everyone’s running around trying to do as many as they can for a few quid each. Then the Accreditation schemes, cream of more money from each survey they do for using their software.

There really is no money in this whatsoever for probably 99% of trained DEA's.

I’m sure they would like to take more time and pride in their work but they don’t get paid for that so they just have to do as many as possible to try and make a living.

I’m a DEA but its not my job, just part of my development (building surveyor) I honestly feel sorry for these people that gave up jobs etc and paid ££££ for a change in career but were ultimately ripped off.

The government have so much to answer for the shambles that saw this introduced, as I say only winners are the pathetic training providers. The joke trading as 'property professionals' springs to mind, they should have been regulated tightly.

All,

This EPC thread is a real downer.

Reading between the lines ….… in principle I agree
It the (not too distant) future a low scoring home will either
1, Require improvement by the seller – if possible
2, Require a commitment to improve it by the buyer (paying less for it).
Well informed buyers must already be putting pressure on price with low EPC ratings – I know I would.

This all falls-over if the EPC does not reflect the true state of the property.

No one likes red tape HIPs EPC, Building control etc and paying for the privilege at gun-point.
They are VITAL to ensure quality, providing they are implemented properly and preferably with sensible enforcement. While no one wants to shell out for red-tape, I would prefer to pay a little bit more for a quality job.

Filling in a ‘short form’ to populate 100 or so cells with default figures is valid and quick, providing it is used as the stating point not the end point.

What is the point in me/anyone doing any improvements to any property if they are not going to be reflected in the EPC when dwelling is sold!

My SAP2005 spreadsheet, as built = 13, current = 48, planned improvements = 70+

According to my initial costing getting from 48 to 70+ will/would have cost in the region of £15,000 DIY. Additional £4,000 for PV taking it to 80ish maybe, but unlikely.

Only a fraction of the work is cost effective in less than 10 years – at DIY prices. But……. if you factor in my £200,000 house now only being worth £180,000 due to a poor rating then the sums look a bit different. This even makes the PV look a bit more reasonable.

I am an engineer and at the end of my contract am/was planning on taking ‘time-out’ to totally refurbish the whole house, total rip-out etc. This is the only sure-fire way of guaranteeing quality. I have worked out how-to DIY an air-infiltration check/tracer to be utilised one room at a time as I do them, it would/will end up being one of the tightest buildings around. I will enjoy doing the work, but I could just as easily go to work and save the cash.

My motivations are mostly for improved comfort with, ‘green’, savings on bills and getting the best ‘bang for my buck’ the bias changes daily. I will make use of all available technology and will choose greener materials if appropriate. Sorry.. but sheep’s wool in the loft just does not do it for me when an equivalent amount spent on rock wool will be far superior and maybe ‘greener’ long term. Moving insulation from A to B uses fuel but not very much due to its density or lack of it. How big a pile would 100Kg of Aerogel be?

I could ‘plug’ the numbers into my SAP spreadsheet in 5mins top’s, especially for a similar detached house, 5 different wall types.. easy, 3 main fuel types.. no problem….ahhh but it is not “official or certified” … more jobs getting in on the act all in the name of conformity… mine will be more accurate and has all of the supporting calculations which can be printed if needed to justify the final score! The devil is in the detail not a simple eco badge like my fridge. Yes, I know SAP2005 has been superseded but the last time I looked EPC was still based on SAP2005.

When time comes to sell, I will be sending the EPC assessor my calculations and he/she had better do a good job else the smelly stuff will be hitting the fan. This presupposes I haven’t already ‘left the building’ in a narrow wooden box.

I’m not a complete SAP nerd, my philosophy is “Gather facts – acquire wisdom from the experienced – make an informed judgement – act”. It’s a tool that performs a task and is informative – even if it has a few flaws (it has). All of this is work in progress, everyone is playing catch-up architects, builder’s planners and Joe public but at least the journey has begun.

In 10 years .. System houses may be the answer.. flatten the old pile and build anew .. 2 weeks start to finish.

Please someone – reassure me that EPC’s are worthwhile.

John

<blockquote><cite>Posted By: john_g</cite>Please someone – reassure me that EPC’s are worthwhile.
</blockquote>

I just heard they are "refactoring" the EPBD - the EU Energy Performance Of Buildings directive that covers the implementation of EPCs. Bascially EPBD 2.0.

Most likely a new EU wide testing regime will be introduced to make it consistent across all member states. So we could see the end of SAP based EPCs, or maybe it's adoption across the whole EU!?

Personally I think it has outgrown it's original use to estimate average building energy use, for building regs approval. We now need software which is more intelligent and can illustrate differing user scenarios.

If we need to get people to consider updating houses to passive house levels of insulation we need to start by throwing RDSAP in the bin.

I know there was some work done on allowing assessors to be able to call up the data for previous EPCs from the central register (so as to not have to redo one from scratch). It seems logical that a central repository is kept for any house so that a later extension or upgrade means that just a bit of new data needs entering - not the whole lot. Keeps costs down.

<blockquote><cite>Posted By: john_g</cite>When time comes to sell, I will be sending the EPC assessor my calculations and he/she had better do a good job</blockquote>

Unfortunately it won't be the assessors fault you get a low score - it will be the way the system is set up. Existing houses don't get the full SAP 2005 treatment - but RDSAP which as I mentioned should be put in the bin! It's impossible to make an old house as good as a new one as you can't override air leakage rates or Wall U Values. Maybe EPBD 2.0 will solve this!

Simon

PS. The tories have always been upfront about their plans for the HIP. Dustbin. However they have said they'll keep the EPC but as a standalone document (they have to as it's EU Law).