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Green Building Bible, Fourth Edition
Green Building Bible, fourth edition (both books)
These two books are the perfect starting place to help you get to grips with one of the most vitally important aspects of our society - our homes and living environment.

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  1.  
    I came across this term on another thread. If I have got this right It relates to the 'warming effect' of natural wool when it becomes wet. This does ring true in that I can remember many fishing trips when I got an old wooly jumper wet and still felt warm.

    My question is this, Do we think this is a further advantage in using this kind of natural insulation?
    • CommentAuthorSaint
    • CommentTimeMar 27th 2007
     
    Mike, I think you might be describing an occurrence mirroring the phenomenon that occurs in haystacks, piles of wool bales and sawdust piles (no personal slight intended!)! Its something to do with oxidation and microbial activity if I recall. It only occurs if the material is damp and people involved in those industries are well aware of this and guard against it. If it starts and is left unchecked then the heat builds up and spontaneous combustion can occur. Clearly not the case with a wooly jumper! It would be embarassing if your cavity fill caught fire though!???
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeMar 27th 2007
     
    Very interesting - on googling (both sorbtion and sorption):

    From http://www.greenbuildingstore.co.uk/ins-thermperf.php
    Condensation Control
    Wool generates heat when it absorbs moisture from the air. That energy is known as the 'heat of sorbtion' and account for the warmth felt by wearers of woollen clothes in winter conditions. When the air is saturated with water vapour, wool absorbs some 40% of its dry weight in moisture, producing 960 kilojoules of heat energy for every kilogram of dry wool. This warmth isn't noticeable inside the building but it acts to prevent condensation in construction cavities by maintaining the temperature above the dew point.

    And this: http://www.merinoinnovation.com/awi/en/Home/about+merino/Proof/proof_warmth_en

    So there's something here - or does it depend upon contact with the skin?
  2.  
    I thought sheeps wool insulation couldn't be used in cavities.
    • CommentAuthorGuest
    • CommentTimeMar 27th 2007
     
    We live north of Auckland in New Zealand and breed Arapawa sheep and have numerous fleece awaiting some form of "project". This merino-type wool is very fine and has excellent insulating properties, but the staple is rather short. I would like to be able to make my own insulation for a renovation we are about to undertake - has anyone out there any ideas about this?
    • CommentAuthorbiffvernon
    • CommentTimeMar 27th 2007
     
    Posted By: SaintMike, I think you might be describing an occurrence mirroring the phenomenon that occurs in haystacks, piles of wool bales and sawdust piles (no personal slight intended!)! Its something to do with oxidation and microbial activity if I recall.


    Oh no - that is something quite different and quite undesirable.

    What we are talking about is the way that heat is given off when water condenses and heat is absorbed when water evaporates. It's physics not biology. When sheepswool absorbs water from a humid atmosphere the water is, effectively, condensing.
    •  
      CommentAuthornigel
    • CommentTimeMar 27th 2007
     
    I think Biff is referring to Phase Change which occurs when a liquid is changed into gas and vice versa.

    It is at this point that heat is either absorbed or given off.
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeMar 27th 2007
     
    Right, when it's humid outside and/or inside, the sheeps wool absorbs water by condensation and absorbs the latent heat, getting warmer, hence altering differential temperatures and hence heat flows between the layers a) inside b) the wall fabric and c) outside. Conversely when air's dry outside and/or inside water evaporates and cools the wall fabric, again altering heat flows. What's the effect of this on instantaneous and diurnal and even seasonal heat loss? Are the effects necessarily good, when the wall fabric heats up more than 'normal' when it's humid and cools more than 'normal when it's dry?
    • CommentAuthorbiffvernon
    • CommentTimeMar 27th 2007
     
    I'm not too sure just how significant this heating and cooling effect is, but the other aspect is the humidity buffering effect. In humid weather the wool absorbs moisture and then releases it on a dry day, helping to keep steady conditions. I'm not quite sure why this is useful?
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeMar 27th 2007
     
    Posted By: fostertomwool absorbs some 40% of its dry weight in moisture, producing 960 kilojoules of heat energy for every kilogram of dry wool
    960kJ = 0.27kWh, so not a lot of heating effect on 1kg of wool - what would be the temp rise? (can't remember my units)
  3.  
    Thanks all for your responses. I must say I am still unsure as to whether this 'effect' is desirable or not. For a start, a vapour barrier on the warm side of the insulation will prevent such an effect from the inside conditions. Or is a vapour barrier not needed?

    If it is than that just leaves the external environment and in order for moisture to be present [through condensation] there must be a reducing temperature gradient to the inside, yes?
    • CommentAuthorbiffvernon
    • CommentTimeMar 28th 2007
     
    That's right - no need for a vapour barrier.
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeMar 28th 2007
     
    Posted By: biffvernonThat's right - no need for a vapour barrier.
    There must be caveats to that Biff - essential to have an outward gradient of vapour resistances if not using a vapour check. BuildDesk free U-value software also asseses condensation risk. Rule of thumb is inner layer's vapour resistance to be minimum 5x (some say only 3x) the outer layer's. E.g. ply/OSB inner sheathing and water-resist plasterboard outer sheathing or of course breather membrane achieves this.
    • CommentAuthorGuest
    • CommentTimeMar 28th 2007
     
    steady humidity conditions. the benefit here is in occupancy health where a desired humidity level of 40-60% is preferable. see gbb vol.1
    my concern would be the slow release of the chemical cocktails pumped into both the animals and the land on which they feed! also whether it is a rodents ideal home.
    • CommentAuthorbiffvernon
    • CommentTimeMar 29th 2007
     
    Tom, there are millions of old buildings that don't have a vapour barrier in the walls. 'Breathable' is the trendy word for it.

    Guest, come off it! We're talking happy organic sheep that have munched nothing but Lakeland fell fodder and come in a range of colours known as Herdwick Grey. (Chernobyl caesium is not volatile.)
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeMar 29th 2007 edited
     
    Posted By: biffvernonmillions of old buildings that don't have a vapour barrier in the walls
    They're fine because not much insulation. If you slap lots of insulation either inside or outside such a wall, without either vapour check or ensuring that resistance gradient (I'm sure you wouldn't.......would you?), then you definitely risk big trouble!
    • CommentAuthorbiffvernon
    • CommentTimeMar 29th 2007
     
    OK, just spell that out, for those of us of little brain.

    For example: 15 inch thick solid masonry wall.
    Two posibilities:
    1. on internal side of wall add studwork to support Thermafleece and clayboard and distemper.
    or
    2. on external side of wall add studwork to support Thermafleece and timber cladding.
    No vapour barriers in either case.

    What is the 'definitely big trouble risk'?
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeMar 29th 2007 edited
     
    Run an interstitial condensation check in e.g. BuildDesk and you'll see where within the composite wall thickness you get interstitial condensation, as you experimentally vary the temp and humidity parameters - or settle for the program's standard parameters. There may be none - you may be lucky - it may e.g. be OK with 100 Thermafleece but risk become significant with 250 Thermafleece. It's not intuitively obvious - you have to run the check - or go for the 5x rule-of-thumb that seems to work in UK climate.
    • CommentAuthorGuest
    • CommentTimeMar 30th 2007
     
    Why not check with the manufacturer of Thermafleece to see what applications they can suggest for the product? Their experience will indicate the type of roof/wall/floor/timber frame/acoustic systems the product has been used in and perhaps how resistance sequences can assist in reducing dewpoints and allow rapid drying systems to function. The critical feature with all constructions is not whether there is a condensation element but how quickly that can be dispersed.
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeMar 30th 2007 edited
     
    Posted By: GuestThe critical feature with all constructions is not whether there is a condensation element but how quickly that can be dispersed.
    Breathability is good for several reasons and its ability to disperse moisture is its safety net, but I wouldn't rely on that - I'd check that I wasn't designing-in guaranteed interstitial condensation under common conditions. That's easily checked in e.g BuildDesk and it's easy to alter vapour resistances of layers to make it work.
    • CommentAuthorGuest
    • CommentTimeApr 22nd 2007
     
    I've found sheepswool to be a great product to work with and would certainly recommend it. It's worth looking at the options though and there are number out there with green options. I found www.burdensenvironmental.com to have a wide selection so worth a look in terms of checking out your options.
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