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Housing - New Build: How can I prove my land is residential not agricutural

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      CommentAuthorjoe90
    • CommentTimeJul 9th 2015
     
    I am applying for planning permission to replace my burnt down bungalow but the council say some of the land in question is agricutural, we do have a field next to it which I know is agricutural but the council say this extends into "our plot". I tried Emailing land registry but they ignored me. I have the original title deeds which back up my argument. The council planning site have some maps on it from an application some 11 years ago which are in line with what the council say but we have no idea where these came from. Who can give me a definitive answer to this or are the title deeds enough?
  2.  
    I would have thought the Land Registry title is definitive. If the deeds are clear, as you say, have you tried sending a copy of the Council?

    I'm no legal expert, but I had someone try and query my ownership of the piece of land I am building a house on and my lawyer told me that as the Land Registry had me clearly as the owner there was nothing to worry about.
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      CommentAuthorjoe90
    • CommentTimeJul 9th 2015
     
    I have been on the land registry website but there is no section that talks about residential verses agricutural land and the FAQs do not touch on this subject.
    • CommentAuthorCWatters
    • CommentTimeJul 9th 2015 edited
     
    The land registry do not hold records on what the "use class" is of land. They only hold records of ownership and some idea of the boundaries. Sometimes when land consists of a house/garden and a separate field/paddock the boundary between the two is shown. Get the map from the land registry web site and compare with what you have.

    Is it possible that a previous owner extended the garden into the field without planning permission? He should have got planning permission for "change of use" for that. What was the 11 years old planning application for?

    Check old maps and aerial photos (Google?) to see if you can find when the boundary moved?

    If the previous owner did extend his garden without permission the planners have 10 years from that breech to issue enforcement proceedings. If you can prove that the breech occurred more than 10 years ago you can apply for a certificate of lawful development on the grounds that they can no longer issue enforcement proceedings. This should be granted automatically IF you can prove the breech occurred more than 10 years ago. I hesitate recommending this option until you have tried other options because it amounts to an admission that a breech has occurred. Try and prove it's always been garden first.

    Edit: Reading your post again I see you have the land registry title map.
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      CommentAuthornigel
    • CommentTimeJul 9th 2015
     
    Our LA has a GIS map online that shows the different use classes of land so you can see what is residential.

    It has nothing to do with land registry.

    The other option is that you can request a certificate of lawful use if you can show that the land has not been agricultural for at least 10 years.
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      CommentAuthorjoe90
    • CommentTimeJul 9th 2015
     
    My wife inherited the property from her late father who owned the property from about 1943 so we know no changes have taken place. I am tempted to ask the planners where they get their info from and why they think the land registry maps are incorrect .
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      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeJul 10th 2015
     
    Posted By: joe90The council planning site have some maps on it from an application some 11 years ago which are in line with what the council say but we have no idea where these came from.

    Surely the name (and address?) of both the applicant and their agent if they had one are on the planning application form? And any drawing normally has the name of the firm that prepared it and typically also the name of the client.

    Posted By: joe90My wife inherited the property from her late father who owned the property from about 1943 so we know no changes have taken place. I am tempted to ask the planners where they get their info from and why they think the land registry maps are incorrect .

    As others have said, the land registry maps are not relevant. They show ownership, not planning use.

    Do you have any photos of your wife's father and family and friends enjoying the use of the disputed land from more than ten years ago? Such photographs would go a long way to proving that its use was as amenity to the bungalow rather than agricultural. Alternatively, can you or anybody else swear a first-hand statement about the use of the piece of land before 2005? (e.g. they went to a BBQ in it, or they were the gardener or whatever)

    What is the boundary between the 'plot' and the 'field', and when was it erected? Can you find anything to prove the date?
  8.  
    Have you checked the local enclosure act if it was defined as agricultural as part of the act then it will still be agriculture unless you can provide evidence of a change of use application.
    • CommentAuthorwoodgnome
    • CommentTimeJul 10th 2015
     
    If you go on Google Earth, you can see views from different years. This might shown the land was used for residential more than 10 years ago.
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      CommentAuthorjoe90
    • CommentTimeJul 10th 2015
     
    I didn't know that, well done mate, will go and look now.
    • CommentAuthorCWatters
    • CommentTimeJul 10th 2015
     
    When someone submits a planning application on land they don't own they have to sign a form stating that the owner has been notified. So even if your wife's late father didn't make the 11 year old application he would still have known about it.
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      CommentAuthorjoe90
    • CommentTimeJul 10th 2015
     
    Posted By: CWattersWhen someone submits a planning application on land they don't own they have to sign a form stating that the owner has been notified. So even if your wife's late father didn't make the 11 year old application he would still have known about it.


    We know who owns it all, us, but it's about formal identification of what's residential and what's agricultural. If I let them get away with saying something is agricutural now we won't be able (without a fight) to do what we want in the future.
    • CommentAuthorTriassic
    • CommentTimeJul 10th 2015
     
    As it's a brown field site ask the council if you can build houses on it!!
    • CommentAuthorEd Davies
    • CommentTimeJul 10th 2015
     
    I think the point CWatters is making is that even if somebody else put in an application for permission for the land your late FIL ought to have been informed so likely had some more context for the plan the council are waving around.

    A long time ago anybody could get planning permission on any land, even if they didn't own it and the owner didn't know. It's a relatively recent innovation that the owner has to be informed but I'm pretty sure the change was made more than 11 years ago.
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      CommentAuthorjoe90
    • CommentTimeJul 11th 2015
     
    Posted By: TriassicAs it's a brown field site ask the council if you can build houses on it!!


    It's not a brownfield site, it was never commercial

    Posted By: Ed DaviesI think the point CWatters is making is that even if somebody else put in an application for permission for the land your late FIL ought to have been informed so likely had some more context for the plan the council are waving around.

    A long time ago anybody could get planning permission on any land, even if they didn't own it and the owner didn't know. It's a relatively recent innovation that the owner has to be informed but I'm pretty sure the change was made more than 11 years ago.


    The application 11 years ago was after FIL passed away, it was done by my Mrs ex husband who didn't appear to inform her what he was doing !!! No wonder she left him 😀.
    • CommentAuthorwoodgnome
    • CommentTimeJul 11th 2015
     
    John, how did you get on with Google Earth?
    The older images only show on a laptop, not on an android device.
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      CommentAuthorjoe90
    • CommentTimeJul 11th 2015 edited
     
    Ah, I only have my IPad at the moment, my desktop is at the Menders. I don't think this will tell me anything I don't already know as it's been in my wife's family since the 1940,s. The issue really is that the planners are saying its different from the deeds and I have, yet to hear from her to explain why they think it's different from the documents we have.

    I have also been pointed to:- http://planninglawblog.blogspot.co.uk/2011/01/curtilage-confusion.html.

    Which shows that planners seem to get this curtalidge thing wrong.
  18.  
    Is your land registered (some still isn't, or wasn't a few years back)?
    • CommentAuthorwoodgnome
    • CommentTimeJul 11th 2015 edited
     
    I don't know why they would be looking at your deeds?
    If the piece of land in question is not on your deeds or you aren't the registered owner with the land registry, you can't apply for planning permission on land you don't own without notifying the owner of the land, are they saying you don't own the piece of land in question?
    As I said earlier, old Google images might prove the land in question has been used as residential ( perhaps shown as part of curtilage ) in which case you do a certificate of lawfulness or whatever its called. The plan the council have on file from 11 years ago is not necessarily correct or accurate.
    Edit.
    Your neighbours objection letter states the 2004 application for the entrance has been in use for a number of years, so that adds to the proof that you can get a certificate of lawfulness on the entrance over agricultural land..
    However, it looks like the planner has other concerns regarding the dwelling size etc.
    • CommentAuthorCWatters
    • CommentTimeJul 12th 2015
     
    Enter your post code here..

    http://www.ukaerialphotos.com/

    They have aerial photos of my place from 1940, 1999, 2006 and later.
    • CommentAuthorTriassic
    • CommentTimeJul 12th 2015
     
    Posted By: joe90
    Posted By: TriassicAs it's a brown field site ask the council if you can build houses on it!!


    It's not a brownfield site, it was never commercial
    Is farming and barns not commercial?
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      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeJul 12th 2015
     
    Posted By: TriassicIs farming and barns not commercial?

    Commercial as in commerce, as in buying and selling. Not agriculture as in growing stuff for sale.
    • CommentAuthorjwd
    • CommentTimeJul 13th 2015
     
    Hi

    If the land has been used for residential garden for more the 8 years (im not 100% sure of the time limit so check) and you can prove it then you can apply for a certificate of lawful use. This legally acknowledges the fact that the land use has changed. The main thing is that during that period the council have not taken any enforcement action against this unapproved change of use. proving change of use can be challenging.
    There is a lesser level (after 6 years I think) called a cert of lawful development which allows as unauthorised structure to became legal but once that structure is demolished the certificate is no longer valid.

    Cheers

    Jw
    • CommentAuthorTriassic
    • CommentTimeJul 13th 2015 edited
     
    My suggestion regarding the brownfield designation is based on a recent development locally, a developer has built six new homes on the site of an old farm, on the basis that it was a brown field site. The site was cleared of old farm buildings and a large area of concrete hard standing prior to redevelopment.

    My father also remained my of a friend if his, who having been refused planning permission for a garage, as it would be on agricultural land, resubmitted the application for a barn and this was accepted. Mind you, he made sure he had a tractor and other bits of farm paraphernalia around (all borrowed) when the planner visited the site.
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      CommentAuthorjoe90
    • CommentTimeJul 15th 2015
     
    Our point is it was never agricultural, the council seem to presume it is, we are still waiting to hear from the council on why they presume it is agricultural. We have family members that can state it has always been garden so residential. I will update this thread when I hear from the council.

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