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Green Building Bible, Fourth Edition
Green Building Bible, fourth edition (both books)
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  1.  
    Hi

    I've got some work to do to a ceiling (and the insulation above), which I might have more specific questions about later. For now, I've been left a bit confused as to when - more generally - a VCL is or isn't needed, and the potential problems with not having one.

    Would I be right in saying that the majority of houses don't have a VCL? Victorian terraces, 1950s/60s bungalows. LA and ex-La houses, etc. etc. - do they have VCLs?

    If they don't, then I'm guessing that's why it's so important that roof spaces are adequately ventilated. But by that reckoning, if an adequately ventilated roof is capable of dealing with problems from household moisture, and resulting condensation, why when I read info about doing work to ceilings and roofs (including loft conversions) are VCLs almost always recommended?

    Taking that premise a step further - if an adequately ventilated loft can deal with household moisture without a VCL, then could adding a VCL be detrimental by trapping more moisture into the habitable parts of the house rather than letting it escape to the roof space where it can be dealt with?

    Which brings me nicely onto my last confudlement. We live in an old solid wall house (albeit with more modern extensions), and so have been learning about the need for letting the walls breath by using lime, etc. Is the same not true of ceilings and roofs? Are there merits to having breathable ceilings/insulation/roof space in old houses? If so, what further confuses me is that while I can see the need for different approaches to different types of wall (modern materials with a cavity VS stone walls without a cavity = different approaches needed) are there any major differences between old and new roofs? Putting thatched roofs and the like aside, are old and new both principally the same insomuch as they have a hard roof covering and timber supports?

    It's all left me scratching my head, so I wondered if anyone could help explain please?

    Many thanks
    • CommentAuthorGreenPaddy
    • CommentTimeMar 10th 2023
     
    I can totally understand your confusion, as recommendations of the "right " way to approach an issue, has to be taken in the context of the building and it's environment.

    Your comments above are, I believe, generally correct in that the attic zone is very often a dehumidifier for the house. That is why some (even recently built) dwellings do not have a VCL across the ceiling-to-attic interface. That's not to say it should not be air-tightened.

    If you delete that vapour removal zone, (by adding a VCL), then you will be changing the dynamics of the building. Make those changes without considering the impact at your peril. A lot of homes that have draft proofed and insulated with best intentions over the years, have suffered.

    Understand what the result of your changes will be, then consider how to mitigate. Add a VCL to the ceiling - what do you do to replace that moisture removal. IWI and seal up all leakage paths - again what is the consequence and how do you mitigate.

    Point is, there is no one right answer. You need to take a wholistic view of what you are trying to achieve, and what the various possible actions will give rise to. I've seen VCL's in houses built from say 1970's, but the totally inadequate insulation and heating meant they "sweated", rotted, moulded. The intent may have been right, but there was no understanding of the consequences of the addition of this layer.

    Worse than all that, is that there are various opinions on breathability of say wall, and often those calling themselves experts are 180o opposed in their views, plus those with an agenda to sell their products.

    So, is adding a VCL right...YES and NO. It's entirely case specific.

    "...Are old and new roofs principally the same?.." in as much as they shed water yes, however one huge factor is the vapour permeability of the skin, inside to outside. Old roofs may have felt (totally impervious to vapour), or they may have no felt. New roofs may have very vapour open membranes, or less so. Old roofs built with lots of eaves to ridge ventilation may have had that altered by enthusiastic DIY'ers, getting rid of the "terrible drafts up there".

    Or maybe they never had that ventilation in the first place - less of an issue 100 years ago, bathing once a week, and open fires. New houses can be designed or built badly, so they don't perform as they ought to.

    This has completely NOT answered your question, as there is no one answer. You need to understand the particular case. Then chose a path that delivers your objectives, without detrimental effects.

    I have a little mantra, which does not state the "right" answer, but establishes a thought process...

    "If you insulate you should air tight. If you air tight you should ventilate. If you ventilate you should recover the heat". Essentially, maintaining a balance.
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeMar 12th 2023
     
    I love your last sentence David!

    For me v/b on all ceilings, I make it the air tightness layer too.
  2.  
    Not wishing to hijack this thread but I have some related queries that I’ve been pondering and instead of starting a new thread I thought I’d tack on here:

    In the case of the addition of a new warm flat roof to the loft space, where most of the guidance I see is to have a VCL above the deck / below the insulation, how do you join that to the VCLs of the adjoining walls?

    Posted By: tonyFor me v/b on all ceilings, I make it the air tightness layer too.


    One approach is, as you suggest Tony, to have the a/t layer at the ceiling, then the joins to the walls are fairly straightforward. But does that then mean that, for example in a warm flat roof construction, you would end up with two VLCs? One on the inside and one on the outside?

    What about if you want to leave your ceiling joists exposed, so therefore no internal ‘ceiling’ to speak of, then what alternative might there be?

    Apologies if this has deviated too far from original thread
  3.  
    Sorry for the late return.

    Thank you so much for the replies, especially @GreenPaddy for the insights and taking the time to explain it all. @number_thirty_three - I don't mind you asking your questions, but perhaps it would derail the initial questions and topics, and furthermore seeing as you haven't had a response you might do better starting a new thread with an appropriate title?

    Back to the above and moving on to what I plan... We don't have damp problems in the house. But we do often have very high humidity. That might be in part due to where we live (Wales, lots of trees are around and water), and also might be due to the house having previously had cement render and modern plaster on the walls (has recently been removed and replaced with lime).

    We live a somewhat odd fashioned lifestyle. Not much hot water usage. A wood burner for most the heating (oil CH radiators for back up). Opening windows in the morning, Etc.

    I think what I am going to do is add PIR to the skeilings between rafters, with another layer perpendicular. That's because space is limited in and beneath the skeilings. For the loft proper, I'll stick to normal insulation, which will be a combination of vermiculite between joists (because that's what is already there), and perpendicular mineral wool.

    VCL... In the bathroom, which will ALL be insulated with PIR, I'll use tape on the PIR to create a VCL, seeing as it is a moist environment. TBH, it won't get used for showers/baths more than once or twice a week if that, but I'll still aim to do it in case things ever change. For the rest of the rooms upstairs I'll tape up the PIR in the skeilings, but more to keep it as airtight as possible. Those rooms are all part skeiling, part ceiling, and as I'm not doing work to the ceilings (apart from adding the insulation in the loft) the opportunity to put in a VCL isn't there. Plus, I think I'd rather some moisture get into the (well ventilated) loft space than have it all trapped in the house, as described and explained above by GreenPaddy.

    Does that all sound like a good plan?

    Many thanks
    • CommentAuthorcjard
    • CommentTimeMar 19th 2023
     
    "What about if you want to leave your ceiling joists exposed"

    Painstakingly cut the VCL and seal it to the seams so they pass through it
  4.  
    Posted By: cjard"What about if you want to leave your ceiling joists exposed"

    Painstakingly cut the VCL and seal it to the seams so they pass through it


    Thanks!
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