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Green Building Bible, Fourth Edition
Green Building Bible, fourth edition (both books)
These two books are the perfect starting place to help you get to grips with one of the most vitally important aspects of our society - our homes and living environment.

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    • CommentAuthorjamesingram
    • CommentTimeFeb 19th 2022 edited
     
    Thought I'd revisit this basic skill to see what people thought was the current best way to achieve a good long lasting solution to internally insulating a solid wall.
    I'll give my preferred methods, feel free to critique it and offer alternatives stating the benefits.
    Non vapour open.
    Foam boards
    On solid brick/block wall with good existing prepared plastered finish and render or brick external finish.
    Using lamented plasterboard comb a tight coat of bonding adhesive on to the wall and fit board , foam perimeter.
    or
    Using insulation board do similar but then fit vertical batons over with fixings through into the wall to create a service void the fix plasterboard to them.

    Vapour open option
    Wood fibre boards , fixed with lime adhesive , mesh lime plaster top coat
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeFeb 19th 2022
     
    Better without battens, for service voids in the wall rather than in the insulation.

    Vapour open, for me EPS stuck and plasterboard stuck on top, later six insulation fixings per sheet
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeFeb 19th 2022 edited
     
    I'm with Tony - but there's always a doubt about fixing the pbd to the EPS, once they know it can't be dotndab thinking. So it's interesting to hear mechanical fixings 'later'.

    an02ew of this forum invested in a spider-web spray keg of contact adhesive - spray both the substrate and the board back. One spray of 30% coverage leaves 70% vapour-open; the other 30% spray leaves 70% of that 70% open = 49% vapour-open overall. But 30% of 30% glue area = 9% only!

    Certainly not to try glueing anything to foil faced Cellotex or similar - it'll easily pull the foil off the board.
    • CommentAuthorjamesingram
    • CommentTimeFeb 19th 2022 edited
     
    Posted By: tonyBetter without battens, for service voids in the wall rather than in the insulation.

    Vapour open, for me EPS stuck and plasterboard stuck on top, later six insulation fixings per sheet


    Just to clarify the batons would be laid on the warm internal side of the insulation rather than in it. I thought bringing the services (mainly electric) through the insulation from the cold wall would create issue around compromising the insulation, airtightness. You would have to rewire the section of course with the inner void option.

    I think you're both right re mechanical fittings in the non baton method , for belt and braces.
    The idea of a glued system seems attractive due to no thermal bridging fixings but potentially unreliable.
    • CommentAuthorjamesingram
    • CommentTimeFeb 19th 2022 edited
     
    Posted By: fostertomI
    Certainly not to try glueing anything to foil faced Cellotex or similar - it'll easily pull the foil off the board.

    Ive tried various diy lament ideas over the years and found contact adhesive on foil back to work ok , I think with a high coverage it must give an overal tension that's different from say pulling from just one corner , in which case its easy to pull the foil off.
    Ive used dot and dab bonding adhesive *(tight comb for airtightness) as well but added mechanical fixing due to worries about long term fix. again though its held well when stressed tested by me pull and knocking it without fixings.
    • CommentAuthorMike1
    • CommentTimeFeb 20th 2022
     
    For my next I'm planning to use hemp insulation behind plasterboard on metal firings, with plywood behind the plasterboard on walls where I'll want to fix heavier items. Perhaps aerogel on some tight-for-space window reveals.

    Hemp's also the chosen material for this French housing association, who spent a decade testing multiple materials & are now rolling it out to hundreds of houses: http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17349
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeFeb 20th 2022
     
    Re battens on the inside of the insulation, the danger is that wind or air from outside gets into this void bypassing all the insulation and for me raises all the same heckles as dot and dab then.
  1.  
    FT said:

    ''Certainly not to try glueing anything to foil faced Cellotex or similar - it'll easily pull the foil off the board.''

    As far as I know K'span or Celotex 'thermal laminates' are exactly that. I have, on a few occasions, used low-expansion foam glue to fix pl'board to foil-faced PIR and it's still fine after several years. On a related note (no foil face, so not the same story) my medium-scale 'DIY Styroliner' (XPS and pl'bd) is still going strong over 30 years in. I used EVA adhesive. My (more recent) basement lining-out involves Pl'bd bonded to foil-faced PIR too.
    • CommentAuthorJonti
    • CommentTimeFeb 20th 2022 edited
     
    deleated
  2.  
    Jonti, can you elaborate on your point re soggy plasterboard? I don't see why that should occur.

    Tony, re warm batten and potential thermal by-pass, surely this is all about detailing and execution. I now always use a parge coat first, so there's little stray air to do any harm anyway, and then I seal everything to within an inch of its life. I have not, as far as I know (and clients would tell me!) had a 'warm batten' installation fail in this way.
    • CommentAuthorJonti
    • CommentTimeFeb 20th 2022
     
    Sorry, bit of a misread from me.
  3.  
    Used pink foam to glue plasterboard to foil-faced PIR. The few bits that I tried to remove (due to errors) did not come off without totally wrecking the plasterboard. It’s a strong fix.
    • CommentAuthorjamesingram
    • CommentTimeFeb 20th 2022 edited
     
    Posted By: tonyRe battens on the inside of the insulation, the danger is that wind or air from outside gets into this void bypassing all the insulation and for me raises all the same heckles as dot and dab then.

    As it'll be on the warm side and used to hold the insulation to the wall as long as every things well sealed prior to the final installation of plasterboard I think its ok.
    with a lamented solution you still get the problem of getting the cable through from the cold side (if that's where they are) or cutting into the insulation for the runs if doing it warm side.
    i understand your concerns re dot and dab , Ive seen issue many time with penetrations into the cavity not sealed and draught running behind the PB but hopefully those doing the refurb insulation will be interested in making sure thats not the case prior to covering.
    I guess I like it because it seems to me to give a bit of extra security to the structure and good fixings for both insulation and PB , much like the method commonly used in pitched roof insulation for attaching the under rafter layer of board.
    • CommentAuthorJeff B
    • CommentTimeFeb 20th 2022
     
    Posted By: tonyRe battens on the inside of the insulation, the danger is that wind or air from outside gets into this void bypassing all the insulation and for me raises all the same heckles as dot and dab then.


    That should not happen surely. I would defy any draught to get through my Celotex-lined walls with the amount of sealing/taping that went on here!
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeFeb 20th 2022
     
    Posted By: tonyRe battens on the inside of the insulation, the danger is that wind or air from outside gets into this void bypassing all the insulation and for me raises all the same heckles as dot and dab then.
    In the details I've seen for such a construction, the main airtightness barrier/VCL is placed inside of and immediately adjacent to the surface of the insulation (indeed it might be the foil surface, suitably taped at joints) so there should be no air at all passing from outside to the inside. The battens and resulting service void are often held to protect the airtightness layer against accidental penetrations, although that does rely on nobody using long screws.
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