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Green Building Bible, Fourth Edition
Green Building Bible, fourth edition (both books)
These two books are the perfect starting place to help you get to grips with one of the most vitally important aspects of our society - our homes and living environment.

PLEASE NOTE: A download link for Volume 1 will be sent to you by email and Volume 2 will be sent to you by post as a book.
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  1.  
    • CommentAuthorbarge17
    • CommentTimeMar 9th 2012
     
    Hi,
    I have been following this forum for a year or more and have gained a lot from it, thanks a lot to all subscribers.

    I am now lucky enough to be involved with my daughter & husband's new build and want to help them get things right from the start.

    Our house is separated 12m away across a concrete yard and we intend to install a gassifying wood boiler in an out buiding to heat both houses.

    In both houses we are going to install short air ducts to tranfer heat ( only when required ) from a space above the wood burning stoves to the coldest point in each house using 6" ducting and am wondering if there are any recommendations for reasonably priced, quiet fans something like this: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/280696501298?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

    David
  2.  
    Welcome! Will that duct go from ground to first floor? What about fire regs? Intumescent liners at floor penetration? Think we have discussed this before. Anyone remember where?
    • CommentAuthorJoiner
    • CommentTimeMar 9th 2012
     
    Fire Regs are the blocker. It isn't just fire that's the killer, smoke tends to be deadlier and it's that which has to be stopped at source. Ducting it around the house wouldn't be a good idea, even if you thought about doing it after it's all signed off. :wink:
  4.  
    Posted By: barge17In both houses we are going to install short air ducts to tranfer heat ( only when required ) from a space above the wood burning stoves to the coldest point in each house using 6" ducting
    Where is this "coldest point"? Is it inside the thermal envelope? If so, why is it cold? Does it need more insulation / better glazing? Or do you just mean that it's unheated?

    As a rule, air is not the best means of moving heat around. Water has a much higher volumetric heat capacity & doesn't risk moving smoke around. If the wood burning stove is too big for the room then better to choose a smaller one or one with a back boiler which can pump excess heat to the thermal store used by the gasifying wood boiler.

    Whichever way you do it, choose a stove with an external air supply input so that you don't need airbricks in the room.

    David
    • CommentAuthorbarge17
    • CommentTimeMar 9th 2012
     
    Oh Heck,

    Glad I asked at this point!

    "Fire Regs are the blocker. It isn't just fire that's the killer, smoke tends to be deadlier"

    I hadn't thought about that.

    "Where is this "coldest point"? Is it inside the thermal envelope? "

    Its in the Kitchen, in the old house, about 30 ft away from the stove, and the heat just dosn't migrate past the kitchen door, even when left open. We only heat the kichen in the morning ( gas CH with 2 zones ), the woodburning stove is in the sitting room, a very nice Clearview stove with a little backboiler thats more trouble than its worth.

    Because of the above, we didn't want a boiler in the new stove. Also the new stove is going to be flat topped and double sided ( serving 2 rooms )

    David
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeMar 9th 2012
     
    If your one mains gas, go with that. It is hard to beat economically and environmentally.
    •  
      CommentAuthorjoe90
    • CommentTimeMar 9th 2012
     
    Not wishing to go off topic but this fire regs bit does not seem quite right when there are no regs to make doors shut (only with three stories, loft conversion etc and these have been relaxed). I wanted, in theory, a duct from a room warmed with woodburner to a large kitchen to balance the heat distribution and if the doors between the rooms were opened this would give a far larger area of air to tranfer the heat (or smoke)?
    • CommentAuthorJoiner
    • CommentTimeMar 9th 2012
     
    OK Joe. You'll be fan-assisting that movement of air will you? :wink:
  9.  
    Joe90, you are of course right. I think the issue is that the doors (with, as you say, a far, far greater aperture) *can* be closed. A hole from one room to another, unless it is lined with intumescent material, cannot.
    •  
      CommentAuthorjoe90
    • CommentTimeMar 9th 2012
     
    Posted By: JoinerOK Joe. You'll be fan-assisting that movement of air will you?:wink:" aria-posinset="0" aria-setsize="0" hspace="0" alt=":wink:" vspace="0" loop="1" src="http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/extensions/Vanillacons/smilies/standard/wink.gif" ismap="false" width="15" start="fileopen" height="15" >


    No, actually. Not done the maths(I will leave this to ST) but had planned (on the back of a fag packet) on a large duct a bit like the old air heating duct at a high level within a inglenook type fireplace and a return duct of similar size at low level so the air flow was passively driven by the heat from the stove. This would also give the opportunity to create a door on the duct to stop the flow if required.
    • CommentAuthorJoiner
    • CommentTimeMar 9th 2012
     
    In the days before being overly bothered about such things as safety.

    Joe, it's the sort of thing you could happily do after it's all signed off. Just as there's nothing to stop you taking down the fire doors and putting some nice etched-glass ones in their place.

    Groping your way through the smoke to close that "door on the duct to stop the flow" might work as well.

    MVHR exhausts all the nasties and only puts back in what it's grabbed from outside and warmed up a bit for you. It's a more subtle kind of "warming up" though. :wink:
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeMar 10th 2012
     
    I have no idea how much smoke you need until it becomes dangerous, but smoke and fire detectors can be wired in to shut down fans and automatically close vents. More work involved, and something that only gets tested in a real life situation once.
    A lot of the risks of fires/smoke have been removed over the last 25 years (since that dreadful Woolworth fire), and Joiner can get hold of many examples of things that have happened since, but I am sure he will agree that having things that do not smoke/burn in a house is the first and best route to take.

    The sums to work out the the transfer of smoke in a house are quite simple, they are just the ACH really, the path the smoke takes is a lot harder to establish. Reduce the leakiness and the flames have less oxygen to work with (how fire doors work). But this may mean that there is a higher concentration of toxins released from something smouldering and producing less heat. What would be interesting to find out is the number of small fires that go undetected for a relatively long time compared to short fires that are detected quickly and compare them to the type of building and the services that building has. A nice little stats job for a part time fireman there.
    • CommentAuthorJoiner
    • CommentTimeMar 10th 2012
     
    Have a word with Mike. He might even show you round the station and let you sit in the cab of an engine! :bigsmile:
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeMar 10th 2012 edited
     
    Have I just been quite sensible there, must be an inherited thing as my Father was in a house fire when he was a kid and still talks about it now, 82 years on. He used to take us past the charred plot where his old house was in the 1960's. Can't see a plot on West Wycombe road laying empty for 30 or 40 years now these days, a new meaning to 'brown field', black field more like.
    •  
      CommentAuthorjoe90
    • CommentTimeMar 10th 2012
     
    Thanks ST I think you have nailed it with smoke detectors wired to vent closers. I too have had two small house fires that luckily were caught early but potentially could have been very serious. One was a tea towel hanging over a cooker left on, the second was a christmas decoration with candle that someone forgot to blow out.

    I think all houses should have smoke and carbon monoxide detectors fitted (carbon monoxide detector not needed for electrically heated house?)
    • CommentAuthorJoiner
    • CommentTimeMar 10th 2012
     
    Ha ha. Nothing like keeping it simple. :wink:
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeMar 10th 2012
     
    Funny about the cooker being left on. I was discussing this just yesterday. How is it that you can leave an oven on while in the house for several hours and not have a problem, then pop out for just a split second and it ruins your whole day.
    What do they know that we don't.

    Shall we think up a really complicated and difficult system to prevent this. Could involve proximity sensors, warning notices, internet connectivity to your cell phone, maybe a bit of education. Then move onto the secondary system of sprinklers, remote alarms, neighbourhood awareness, legislation, and then onto the testing and insurance.

    Or just eat cold food.
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeMar 10th 2012
     
    Now back to the OP (as they have been reading this site for a while I hope they have a sense of humour)

    Insulate, airtightness and then look at the best system for your money.

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