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Green Building Bible, Fourth Edition
Green Building Bible, fourth edition (both books)
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    • CommentAuthorMagsonDave
    • CommentTimeMay 4th 2016 edited
     
    We have a large Victorian house heated by a floor standing gas boiler situated in one of the cellar rooms. The CH system has separate ground/cellar floor and 2nd floor zones with a third set of pipes for DHW. The adjoining cellar room has been converted into a study with heating provided by 2 radiators and I am also going to fit a wood burner into the old fireplace for additional heating in the winter.
    I have been considering upgrading the wood burner to include a back boiler and use it to feed a Thermal Store along with the gas boiler so that I can also use the plentiful supply of wood that I have to help reduce the considerable gas heating bill throughout the winter months.
    I know that a Thermal Store is the most elegant solution but I am questioning why I need it in my particular application and why I cannot simply put the wood burner in series immediately before the gas boiler and use it as a "pre-heater" for the water? The gas boiler will always be my main source of heating and the wood burner will only be used during the cold winter months - I can't see any pitfalls with my plan not to use a TS.
    Any input/comments gratefully received....
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeMay 4th 2016
     
    I am not a plumber but you may find that a gas boiler does not like water entering it hotter than a certain temperature, or temperature difference, it may also ruin the condensing mode. Also there is safety. I is possible to quite easily boil water in a wood burner, that can cause problems elsewhere.
    You may be able to do something with an inline heat exchanger and a temperature controlling valve though.
    • CommentAuthorgyrogear
    • CommentTimeMay 4th 2016 edited
     
    If you fit a wood-burner in the study, seeing as you have free wood, then why not turn off those 2 rads in there, and save some gas ?
    (this is assuming that the fireplace *is* actually in that same study room ?)

    gg
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeMay 4th 2016
     
    The hot water from the wood-burner will flow through the heat exhanger in the boiler, which will efficiently couple it to the air in the boiler and so extract some heat and send it up the flue.

    I also expect it will be against regs but I'm no plumber either.
  1.  
    A wood burning stove with a back boiler is an uncontrolled heat source. If someone puts a log in when you're not looking then the system needs to be able to "dump" the heat to somewhere quickly enough to stop the water from boiling & the boiler from blowing up.

    You can't use a gas boiler to dump the heat as it might not be connected to any heating load at the time. Depending on water flow rates, the amount of wood in the stove, etc the output temperature of the back boiler will almost certainly be above the target return temperature of the gas boiler and could well be above its target flow temperature. I don't know what the boiler controller would do in this situation, but its most likely to shut down & display a fault code.

    You can use a few radiators (without thermostatic radiator valves), but these may be in a room which doesn't need the heat. A thermal store is a much more elegant solution as it allows the heat to be directed to where its needed when its needed. This is especially useful with log burners as they are most efficient when run at high temperatures, so you tend to get a lot of heat in one go.

    David
  2.  
    What David said +1.
    However if you want to avoid a thermal store, which can be expensive items anyway, you could install the wood burner with its own rads as a totally separate system. If you can manage it a wood burner installed on a gravity system is generally self regulating in so far as you don't (can't) over cool the firebox by running the CH pump and taking out too much heat. (Which could happen if the wood stove was in series with the gas boiler, a point not yet mentioned!). If the temp of the fire drops then the flow stops, when the temp rises the flow starts and the hotter the fire the faster the flow. Of course you will need the extra wall space but a few carefully placed rads from the wood stove, when on, could down down the TRVs on the gas CH and save gas that way.
  3.  
    Do you have the option of installing solar panels (either PV or thermal)? If you do, then I'd bite the bullet and fit a thermal store. You'll gain the advantage of DHW from your boiler stove and with a heat exchanger you can set the maximum temperature of the water at your taps so the piping hot water from solar and wood boiler doesn't scald anyone. You also eliminate any chance of water borne disease as your hot water is supplied from the mains and is therefore drinkable. A boon for brushing and rinsing sensitive teeth!
  4.  
    Thanks all for the input.

    SteamyTea - good point on the boiler not liking the temp diff - I'll need to consider this.

    Gyrogear - good point - all Rads have TRVs so the one's in the study would hopefully shut off when the log stove is on.

    djh - thanks, hadn't thought of that.

    Davidfreeborough - all good points thank you. The hot water circuit has 3 towel radiators on it without TRVs so as long as these were always open there would be a path for the water. Also would need to ensure there is a propr safety system on the log boiler for if the water got too hot.

    Peter_in_Hungary - interesting thought. I'll consider it but possibly not practical as I wouldn't want to have to rely on only the log boiler for heat for any parts of the house.

    Pile-o-Stone - unfortunately no chance of Solar Panels close to the place where I would put the TS but certainly an option over the other side of the house where the DHW tank is so was considering changing the DHW tank to take advantage of solar at some point.

    Bit of a rushed post this but thanks again for all the comments and I'll continue to look into it. I might be better off going with an H2 panel or similar? Great to be able to get some input on this - i'll continue to post with my thinking .....
  5.  
    Posted By: MagsonDave
    Pile-o-Stone - unfortunately no chance of Solar Panels close to the place where I would put the TS but certainly an option over the other side of the house where the DHW tank is so was considering changing the DHW tank to take advantage of solar at some point.


    This may only be an issue if you are considering solar thermal. If you go with PV with a diverter to the thermal store immersion heater, the panels can be quite a distance away from the store. You benefit from being able to use the energy produced for more than just heating water, and the system won't destroy itself in freezing weather!

    We have solar panels on our detached garage and that's about 30m away from the thermal store. Our excess solar power is diverted into the Thermal Store. Our store has an immersion heater in the top third of the tank and it's already getting fully hot on really sunny days. We have a boss for a second immersion in the bottom third of the store and I'll soon be looking at fitting a second immersion there. Our diverter can handle two immersion heaters. It prioritises the top immersion (for DHW) first and when that reaches temperature (75C), it will switch to the second immersion.

    If you fit the thermal store, you'd obviously be able to remove the DHW cylinder, which may free up some space for you, depending on where it is located.
  6.  
    Posted By: MagsonDavePeter_in_Hungary - interesting thought. I'll consider it but possibly not practical as I wouldn't want to have to rely on only the log boiler for heat for any parts of the house.

    Actually what I was suggesting is an additional CH run by the wood stove so the rooms / places chosen for wood stove heating would also have gas CH rads. Hence the need for additional wall space.

    Posted By: Pile-o-StoneYou'll gain the advantage of DHW from your boiler stove and with a heat exchanger you can set the maximum temperature of the water at your taps so the piping hot water from solar and wood boiler doesn't scald anyone.

    I would prefer to see a separate DHW tank because I think this gives better options. Your solar PV can heat the DHW and the CH TS can also heat the DHW if needed. Heat exchangers for DHW on a TS are usually plate heat exchangers and these can wreck the stratification (= loss of efficiency) in a TS due to the high water flows needed.
    • CommentAuthorMagsonDave
    • CommentTimeMay 5th 2016 edited
     
    Posted By: Peter_in_HungaryActually what I was suggesting is an additional CH run by the wood stove so the rooms / places chosen for wood stove heating would also have gas CH rads. Hence the need for additional wall space.


    Ok - got you now. Interesting thought actually so will consider it. Agree with your comments on the separate DHW tank

    Posted By: Pile-o-StoneThis may only be an issue if you are considering solar thermal. If you go with PV with a diverter to the thermal store immersion heater, the panels can be quite a distance away from the store.


    Thanks - another interesting thought. We have had a 2.1Kw PV array on the roof since the beginning of the FIT program so then anything that comes out of it goes straight into the grid. Hadn't considered perhaps fitting more to feed an immersion heater in a TS though.

    Beginning to think that biting the bullet and going for a TS might be the best thing as long as I can find the £££. Start with Wood Burner and Gas boiler feeding into the TS, with outputs for CH and DHW tank and possibly later on have a second input in the DHW tank from Solar Thermal panels. This was always the original plan - just need to make sure it is necessary to spend the money on a TS in order to get what I want out of the system. I can't see me adding anything more as inputs in to the TS in the future so am just wondering if it is overkill for what I want.
    • CommentAuthorPeterW
    • CommentTimeMay 5th 2016
     
    If you already have PV then unless you are already using it all it makes sense to divert to a TS.

    Solar Thermal is pointless - its a one trick pony that needs massive storage to make any real difference.

    If you go for a Newark TS you can get it with the coil in the tank and it doesn't upset the stratification as much if you draw off a small amount of water compared with a PHE system. Newark also allow you to add multiple Immersions etc and additional insulation as your losses will be quite high with a standard TS of any sort when you are storing the water at 75c +

    If you want to keep the DHW tank in place then consider using a 500 litre buffer instead of the TS and use this to heat the DHW tank. In that instance adding immersions as dump loads would be split between the DHW (1) and the Buffer (2) to maximise hot water.
    • CommentAuthorringi
    • CommentTimeMay 5th 2016
     
    How old is your gas boiler? How good is the draft proofing on your windows and doors? What about your insulation level?

    I question if it is worth the pain of having a back boiler on a wood burning stove when you already have mains gas heating….. I expect that spending the money on other ways of reducing your heating costs will give a much better return on investment.

    Also a back boiler makes it much harder to run the WB in the correct way and leads to a lot more smoke.
  7.  
    PeterW - you've hit on something that I've been worried about there, i.e. losses associated with a TS. I read in some places that losses are minimal but I've been concerned that there has to be some loss and if it's comparable to any benefits I gain, I'm simply wasting my time and money. I'll have a look at the Newark - thanks.

    ringi - good input thanks and all taken care of. Over the last 6 years I've replaced all the single glazed windows with DG and draught-proofed all the doors and other cavities. There's 18" of insulation in the attic ..... and if we're a bit cold we put a jumper on before we turn up the heating. The gas boiler is v old but renewing that is part of the new installation plan.

    I didn't regard having a back boiler on the WB as a pain really, it was more of a case that we are definitely going to have a WB in that room, as much for aesthetics as for efficiency - so I thought why not include a back boiler and divert some of the heat to the CH rather than just heating up the one room.
    • CommentAuthorgyrogear
    • CommentTimeMay 5th 2016
     
    Well, not to spoil the party or anything, surely a simpler route would be to install the WB, then use a heat-recovery system on the flue, to borrow heat that can be ducted out to neighbouring rooms...

    These things cost around 150 Euros in France... (but ducting will cost you a lot more )
    http://www.bricodepot.fr/st-brieuc/search/node/;jsessionid=6D1B26B12FE99208894661DF8A93CFE0.node41kit%20de%20distribution%20d%E2%80%99air%20chaud?query=kit+de+distribution+d%E2%80%99air+chaud&pageSize=20&categoryId=navCatalogRootCategory&sort=priceAsc

    gg
    •  
      CommentAuthorjoe90
    • CommentTimeMay 7th 2016
     
    <blockquote><cite>Posted By: gyrogear</cite>Well, not to spoil the party or anything, surely a simpler route would be to install the WB, then use a heat-recovery system on the flue, to borrow heat that can be ducted out to neighbouring rooms...

    These things cost around 150 Euros in France... (but ducting will cost you a lot more )
    http://www.bricodepot.fr/st-brieuc/search/node/;jsessionid=6D1B26B12FE99208894661DF8A93CFE0.node41kit%20de%20distribution%20d%E2%80%99air%20chaud?query=kit+de+distribution+d%E2%80%99air+chaud&pageSize=20&categoryId=navCatalogRootCategory&sort=priceAsc

    gg</blockquote>

    I really like this idea of robbing heat from a flue for another room, I can't convert this to English but get the gist, are there any English retailers that I can get into from?
  8.  
    I'm always a bit nervous about these - any chance they would over cool the flue, especially if the stove was being run shut down.
    • CommentAuthorgyrogear
    • CommentTimeMay 7th 2016 edited
     
    Posted By: Peter_in_Hungaryany chance they would over cool the flue, especially if the stove was being run shut down.


    Yes, I suppose that there is always that risk...

    I should imagine that the heat recovery unit is delivered with technical instructions to similar effect, viz. don't open it up until the stove is at operating regime etc.

    In that case, the risk should not be any greater than abusing any other mechanical equipment, such as, say, over--revving one's car on a cold morning... :sad:.

    I don't have one of these units anyhow (no space), but what is apparent is, *ANY* stove will (by definition...) have its flue cooling, as it is run down !

    Isuspect that the normal mode, is to give the stove a good blast at least once per session, to get the s**t out of the flue.

    Personally, I bought a WB that was intentionally at the low-end re my heating requirement, so that it would need to be run HOT and fast (which is when they give maximum efficiency...). Also, after many months, I bought a flue temperature device that indicates when the flue is at optimal / sub-optimal / dangerous level; a good investment: on first using it, it was immediately obvious to me that I had been running the stove *way* too cool...

    gg
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