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Green Building Bible, Fourth Edition
Green Building Bible, fourth edition (both books)
These two books are the perfect starting place to help you get to grips with one of the most vitally important aspects of our society - our homes and living environment.

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    • CommentAuthormunnum
    • CommentTimeSep 19th 2022
     
    Hi, i have been reading back through years of advice on your forum and am hoping someone could advise me what my best option is here.

    We have a two story detached house, built in 1999 with twin leaf blocks,100mm cavity partially filled with 50mm aeroboard. On the internal leaf is a dot and dabbed 50mm plasterboard of which around 37mm is insulation material (blueish in colour). The blocks are not plastered internally. The external finish is plastered and is done well. It was my parents house and we are now moving into it.

    I was thinking of filling the cavity with PU foam which would improve airtightness and has a higher insulation value than beads. The beads in ireland are grant-applicable and the job would cost me ca. 1,000eu to do with beads versus around 10,000eu! with the closed cell PU foam (not grant applicable).

    The house isn't really that leaky, i don' recall any draughts growing up there, we will be changing the windows, it has concrete subfloor and first floor.

    I'm thinking of going ahead with the beads, but the rep for the PU foam, mentioned that with the dot and dabbed board inside that there will be a lot of air passing through to the blocks and the beads will just let it through, hence making them not worthwhile at all.

    The foam seemingly degrades overtime too (according to my forum research)??

    Im open to EWI too, it just seems like a huge job and im not sure if IWI, CWI and EWIis a good mix??
  1.  
    I mixed CWI and EWI on a home 14 years ago , theyve rpeorted no negative effect.
    With hyrid insulation (mixing internal external) xtratherm suggest its ok as long as the outer layer is the better insulator (would require further research)
    • CommentAuthormunnum
    • CommentTimeSep 19th 2022
     
    Thanks James. Good to hear it went well. I had another bead installer out today to price it. I think it makes the most sense to fill the remaining 50mm cavity with bead. 100mm EWI is 180eu per sqm for the full works finished plus the bead needs to go in too. A good job I'm sure but I think I'll settle for just the bead. It's 14eu per sqm with a grant of ca 1500eu.
  2.  
    I agree the beads seems the best cost effective solution.
    If the external render fails EWI could be looked at then.
    Internally you could attempt to improve airtightness by using a parge coat with hardwall backing plaster behind electrical outlets or perhaps expanding foam and also look at sealing around the perimeter of the walls , corners , ceiling/floor to wall junction.
    Where joists meet the wall under floor boards is also another well know air leaky area
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeSep 20th 2022
     
    Beads for me too, big worries are air leakage from both loft and underfloor op behind the thermal boards bypassing the insulation in the cavity. I prefer to see a few hundred mm of insulation

    New foams might not degrade, icyne type ones?

    The first floor void might be draughty cooling the house especially if there are lean to roof, porch, bay windows or garage.

    Beads do resist air flow but not eliminate it.

    I would recommend a thermal imaging inspection, here we can sometimes borrow an imager from a green group or the LA
  3.  
    I vote for the beads as well.

    Regarding the comments from the PU foam rep - well he would say that, probably not an unbiased opinion.

    When contemplating EWI with a cavity wall - don't forget that the cavity has to be insulated as well otherwise EWI won't work, so as said above beads first then EWI if justified.
    • CommentAuthormunnum
    • CommentTimeSep 20th 2022
     
    Thanks all. I will get thermal imaging done and was going to organise an air tightness test. Don't know if our councils have the camera, them but I'll check.

    There are two bays and the roofs must be leaking air from house. I'm going to remove the tiles of these anyway as they are in poor condition, so I might be able to get in, insulate and seal it up.

    The main benefit of the ewi is I'd have a total of 235mm insulation on the walls. The reps price today was 54000eu less 8000eu grant so 46000eu which includes pumping ca ity with bead, 100mm ewi, cills, pipework relocation, rendering.

    As I cannot guarantee the airtightness (at moment but maybe the air tightness test will say otherwise) I couldn't commit to that expense as it may not be that beneficial.

    Thanks again
    • CommentAuthormunnum
    • CommentTimeSep 20th 2022
     
    Thanks all. I will get thermal imaging done and was going to organise an air tightness test. Don't know if our councils have the camera, them but I'll check.

    There are two bays and the roofs must be leaking air from house. I'm going to remove the tiles of these anyway as they are in poor condition, so I might be able to get in, insulate and seal it up.

    The main benefit of the ewi is I'd have a total of 235mm insulation on the walls. The reps price today was 54000eu less 8000eu grant so 46000eu which includes pumping ca ity with bead, 100mm ewi, cills, pipework relocation, rendering.

    As I cannot guarantee the airtightness (at moment but maybe the air tightness test will say otherwise) I couldn't commit to that expense as it may not be that beneficial.

    Thanks again
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeSep 20th 2022
     
    Sometimes I fill small bay roofs full of insulation eps beads preferred as they can be pumped in, regs say small roofs are exempt from ventilation requirements, of course no definition of small so I decide.
    • CommentAuthorshortsy
    • CommentTimeSep 21st 2022
     
    At least you've found a CWI supplier! Remarkably there appears to be no suitable supplier in north London. I live on an estate of late 1990s houses all built with 50mn cavities that haven't been filled. According to the original residents, the developers claimed damp problems with the first houses and agreed with the local authority to use insulated plasterboard on the inside of the walls instead, so avoiding putting anything into the cavities. The U values of the walls as designed is around 0.4-0.48, so twice as bad as current regs. Having carefully gone through the CIGA/NIA accredited list for the south-east, I still have no offer. The best product I can find for our house is Thermabead based in Worcester, but having phoned them they do not cover our area and couldn't tell me of any contractor using their product that does. A good product could clean up on this estate, as it looks like no one has done it in the last 25 years presumably because energy costs have been too cheap. It brings into focus the problems this country will have in fighting the energy crisis, as we don't seem to have a skilled supply chain in place
  4.  
    I live in Yorkshire and a year or so ago a CWI co. from the South East was very active in the area. I have little idea why firms would travel that far. If I could remember their name I'd give you it. Good luck finding someone!
    • CommentAuthorwookey
    • CommentTimeOct 8th 2022
     
    The nominal U-value with plasterboard, 37mm XPS (I think the blue ones are usually XPS, but this may vary by region/manufacturer), block, aeroboard (Some DDGing suggests this may be EPS board?), beads, block, render? is 0.23. Which is reasonable, but not great. PU spray foam might get you to 0.205 which is rather better.

    I'd always recommend EWI as the best way to do things, but as noted that needs the cavity filling anyway and preferably the top of the cavity sealing, so there is no downside to putting in the beads (glued ones are better so they will stay put).

    That unparged dot & dab is not good - quite likely to be letting a lot of circulation happen so you won't actually get the nominal U-value, and quite likely bad airtightness overall, but pulling it all off to do it properly is inconvenient and quite possibly not practical (It'll just break). So just bunging up all the holes will probably have to do. I'd get an airtightness test (after the beads) to see where you are at. (Or mount your own fan and go looking for draughts).

    So I'd say you are in a bit of a tricky zone here. Maybe good enough to get away with not EWI-ing, but it does depend how well the IWI is done, and what else is done. It would be a lot more convincing with the foam over the beads (depending what numbers your foam supplier gives - I used 0.035 and 0,027 respectively).

    I'd do some PHPP sums to see where you get to with the new windows and filled cavity. Anywhere under 50kWh/m2 is acceptable (AECB retrofit standard), but closer to 25 (enerPHit) is a lot better.
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