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Green Building Bible, Fourth Edition
Green Building Bible, fourth edition (both books)
These two books are the perfect starting place to help you get to grips with one of the most vitally important aspects of our society - our homes and living environment.

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      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeJul 18th 2022 edited
     
    Good - but why wait till now, if (as it seems) there's no obstacles. The ideas have been around for ages.
    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/jul/18/uk-energy-cheaper-rates-electricity-bills

    "Officials said such a move could send “sharp” signals to encourage consumers to be more flexible in their usage and seek cheaper, greener energy at certain times"
    and
    "The initiative would minimise network costs by bringing electricity demand closer to supply"
  1.  
    Cheap rates when demand is low ......but only for those with so called smart meters 'cos without them you can't control /measure time of use

    And of course the other side follows ....Punitive rates for when demand is high
  2.  
    TBF the actual news is of a government consultation about reforming the wholesale electricity market to encourage renewable generators - longer term contracts, payment for predictability instead of per MWh, lower prices in regions that have excess renewable energy that day, that sort of thing. You can respond if interested.

    The journo perhaps thought that was all too complicated or boring for their readers to understand, so snipped out a few paras about time-of-use pricing and wrote a headline about that instead (which has indeed been around for ages, although not much take up from the 'traditional' big energy companies who are the ones surviving the current shakeout).

    The passing mention of the National Grid report is more interesting. They have forecasted for several scenarios in which energy is decarbonised.

    The first involves consumers embracing time-of-use consumption and heat pumps to balance renewable generation. The second involves consumers not getting involved, and so utilities will need to pay for long term storage, carbon capture, nuclear, and hydrogen distribution, to decouple time-of-consumption from time-of-generation. Both scenarios get to net zero, the first is cheaper, hence the wholesale market reforms to encourage that.

    https://www.nationalgrideso.com/future-energy/future-energy-scenarios
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeJul 18th 2022
     
    Posted By: Peter_in_HungaryCheap rates when demand is low ......but only for those with so called smart meters 'cos without them you can't control /measure time of use
    Not quite true. We have an E7 tariff with a dumb-ish E7 meter (it's electronic but its electromechanical predecessors worked just as well). E7 has been around forever. And flavours like E10 etc.
  3.  
    The consultation is about wholesale markets, so domestic metering is not a main focus. But the idea is to have a higher price during cold weather, and a lower price on windy weekends, so yes a smart meter would be needed.

    One idea is for a heatpump supplier to switch 1000s of their customers' heatpumps on/off, to make a virtual mega battery, which could bid for grid support fees (IE they agree to switch off for an hour if the grid is struggling, in exchange for a daily payment). The supplier deals with the admin and pockets the payment, and the customers get their heatpumps operated at the cheapest times of day without them paying attention.

    Another idea is that if it is windy in Scotland and calm in Cornwall, the Scots will get cheaper power and vv., so everyone shifts their usage to the cheapest days.
    • CommentAuthorMike1
    • CommentTimeJul 18th 2022
     
    Posted By: Peter_in_HungaryCheap rates when demand is low ......but only for those with so called smart meters
    That's 53% of the domestic electricity meters in the UK and 49% of non-commercial meters...
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeJul 18th 2022 edited
     
    Posted By: WillInAberdeeneveryone shifts their usage to the cheapest days
    or shifts themselves to Scotland!
    • CommentAuthorCliff Pope
    • CommentTimeJul 19th 2022 edited
     
    If the intention is to change consumer habits then surely there are two rather different routes:

    1) A glorified E7 system, with fixed times at pre-stated charge rates. Everyone knows when the cheaper times are, and use or set their useage to take advantage of that.

    2) A flexible system that measures demand and adjusts prices in real time. That might over time tend to occur at around the same time each day, a bit like rush hour tending to occur at the same time, but there would be no guarantee - one football match could change the whole picture.

    That is where a truly "smart" meter would come into its own - it would observe that prices were tumbling, and so automatically turn on any pre-set equipment that users had set up (washing machine, dishwasher, heater in a damp wardrobe, or of course industrial processes), but would also flash an alert to the house occupants that electricity would be half-price during the next hour or so.

    And of course the converse would apply - the cost of a cuppa during the interval might suddenly double.

    The basic point though would be that any system of price change based on demand would be useless unless people were in a position actually to change their demand in time to take advantage of it, or mitigate it.
  4.  
    Absolutely! Yesterday afternoon, over 20% of UK electricity was from PV, so the intent of the market reform is to make sunny afternoons into cheap electricity periods, along with windy weekends.

    The big electricity demands are expected to be for heating/DHW and for electric car chargers. The newer ones of those are already 'smart' enough to respond to a signal over the internet of "it's cheap right now" or "it's expensive right now".

    Or, a new breed of service companies could provide more sophisticated thinking like "charge up your EV to 80% now, because it will probably be more expensive tomorrow", and switch your charger on/off accordingly. That kind of automation is needed so consumers don't have to pay attention themselves (most can't/won't). The market needs to work out who those service companies will be, who trusts them, and how they get paid.

    The UK smart meters have some limited bandwidth to send those on/off signals to appliances such as EV chargers, using their "ALCS" function. However, manufacturers are not using this, they seem to prefer using the internet to convey those low-security on/off/price signals, and keep the secure smart meters network reserved for the fraud-sensitive functions, such as billing.
    • CommentAuthorphiledge
    • CommentTimeJul 19th 2022
     
    Posted By: WillInAberdeenAbsolutely! Yesterday afternoon, over 20% of UK electricity was from PV, so the intent of the market reform is to make sunny afternoons into cheap electricity periods, along with windy weekends.


    At the same time as PV was doing its 20%, gas power stations were doing 40%+ of generation. Given weve got schools, hospitals, public transport, workplaces etc to run, personally I dont think anyone should be encouraged to use any more electricty than is essential.
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeJul 19th 2022
     
    Posted By: Cliff PopeThat might over time tend to occur at around the same time each day, a bit like rush hour tending to occur at the same time, but there would be no guarantee
    That's a good vision of how it might work out in practice, for most people, leaving super-finesse (and momentary ultra-low or negative price bargains?) to enthusiasts.

    Posted By: WillInAberdeena new breed of service companies could provide more sophisticated thinking
    Why wouldn't the incumbents do that, perhaps after new 'disrupter' cos force the pace?
    • CommentAuthorCliff Pope
    • CommentTimeJul 19th 2022
     
    It depends on whether service providers actually want customers to change their patterns of useage.

    If there is a massive demand for power at a certain time, does the company a) want to encourage customers to switch to an easier time slot, or b) persuade them to stay plugged in so that they can milk them through higher prices?

    With government policies it is assumed that higher taxes and prices on particular activities are imposed to pursuade people not to do them - so a poor tax uptake would signify the policy was working - people had stopped smoking, spitting, speeding, etc.
    On the other hand cynics suspect that the government does not actually care about what people do, and simply wants to extract as much money as possible, especially from those who are not able to modify their habits.
  5.  
    Posted By: WillInAberdeenThe market needs to work out who those service companies will be, who trusts them, and how they get paid

    I wouldn't necessarily trust my electricity supplier to tell my heatpump when to heat the house, they have vested interests, and a poor service record. I might trust the heatpump manufacturer a bit more, or maybe not (what do they know about it?). Ideally I would trust a uSwitch type of outfit, so long as they weren't on comission.

    The switching service provider will also be getting paid by the grid, to switch off customer's car chargers whenever the grid is overloaded (the virtual battery thing) so we'd need to know how much they are getting paid for that and whether they are sharing that fee with the customers.

    Posted By: philedgeAt the same time as PV was doing its 20%, gas power stations were doing 40%+ of generation. Given weve got schools, hospitals, public transport, workplaces etc to run, personally I dont think anyone should be encouraged to use any more electricty than is essential.
    True, but for the rest of the day there was 45-55% gas power, so would have been best yesterday to encourage people to charge their cars at noon rather than in the morning/evening. Will become more pronounced in near future as large PV farms work their way through planning, we could have 40%+ PV some afternoons.
    • CommentAuthorphiledge
    • CommentTimeJul 19th 2022
     
    Posted By: WillInAberdeenTrue, but for the rest of the day there was 45-55% gas power, so would have been best yesterday to encourage people to charge their cars at noon rather than in the morning/evening.


    With limited renewables it doesnt really matter what time of the day you load the grid when all that does is ramp up a gas turbine.

    Probably a better policy would be give out free bus/rail passes or bike servicing vouchers to those who keep their personal energy usage below a certain level?
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeJul 19th 2022
     
    Posted By: WillInAberdeenI wouldn't necessarily trust my electricity supplier
    Posted By: WillInAberdeenI might trust the heatpump manufacturer a bit more, or maybe not
    Posted By: WillInAberdeenIdeally I would trust a uSwitch type of outfit
    Posted By: WillInAberdeen[who] will also be getting paid by the grid, to switch off customer's car chargers whenever the grid is overloaded

    So maybe, as the only entity unequivocally motivated to even out demand, maybe the Grid should
    Posted By: WillInAberdeenprovide more sophisticated thinking ... and switch your charger on/off accordingly
  6.  
    The grid operator are supposed to be the impartial trusted party who run the auctions for capacity, including battery capacity. If they were running their own virtual battery service themselves on the side, then no other battery investor would trust them to be impartial, I would think.

    It would be like an air traffic control tower starting their own airline, which mysteriously got allocated all the best landing slots!


    Edit to add: but the consultation is open, you could put your suggestions in?
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeJul 20th 2022
     
    That sounds like unintended poor consequences of contorting a worthy objective (that's natural and obvious to rhe Grid) - demand smoothing at source - into some ideological market-concept of 'virtual battery service'.
  7.  
    Here's an example from Australia where they already have a large % of renewable output that doesn't naturally match up with demand periods: (UK expected to be in same situation by 2030s)

    "[household] assets connected to the Project Symphony Virtual Power Plant such as rooftop solar, batteries, air conditioners and hot water systems will be managed by the Project Symphony VPP software platform. Eligible assets ... will work together as a single power plant, to help manage the supply and demand on the electricity grid. Sophisticated software is used to adapt the connected [household appliances] to optimise grid conditions and to manage energy flows."

    https://www.synergy.net.au/Our-energy/For-tomorrow/Project-Symphony

    Whenever Sheila's PV panels get shaded by a passing cloud, Bruce's hot water heater will be turned off for a few minutes, and vv. They both get a share of the savings and the Virtual Power Plant company does the admin for them. From the Grid's perspective, it looks and feels the same as if a big battery has been connected that smooths out supply and demand, but cheaper than if someone had to build a physical lithium battery or a pumped storage dam.
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeJul 20th 2022
     
    Posted By: WillInAberdeenFrom the Grid's perspective, it looks and feels the same as if a big battery has been connected
    I understand that, but crazy if the Grid is debarred from developing such schemes, when it has a natural incentive to do so wholeheartedly.
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeJul 20th 2022
     
    Interesting project but: "Project Symphony is a collaboration between Synergy, Western Power, the Australian Energy Market Operator (AEMO) with support from Energy Policy WA. Project Symphony is a key deliverable of the State Government's DER Roadmap and Energy Transformation Strategy.

    "In addition to WA State funding, Project Symphony has also received funding from the Australian Renewable Energy Agency (ARENA) as part of ARENA’s Advancing Renewables Program."

    suggests that not only is it a limited-term pilot rather than a commercial venture, but also that it is being run in part by 'the grid'. So not really a good answer to Tom's question.

    Posted By: fostertomI understand that, but crazy if the Grid is debarred from developing such schemes, when it has a natural incentive to do so wholeheartedly.
    I think Will's example shows that it is possible for the grid to develop such systems. The difficulty arises when they want to turn such schemes into money-making commercial ventures and at that point I can see a conflict of interest as Will says. But there'll have to be some regulation or something to prevent such VPP (which already means Velocity Prediction Program, BTW https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Velocity_prediction_program :) from interfering with each other.
  8.  
    Yes, those are the regulations they are consulting on now, among others, such as how anyone will get paid for doing this kind of thing. Send your suggestions in!
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