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Politics: Green building codes don't save energy

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1 to 29 of 29

  1.  
    • CommentAuthorTriassic
    • CommentTimeFeb 2nd 2015 edited
     
    Building codes that require energy efficient features haven't done anything to lower energy consumption in California despite adding thousands of dollars to the purchase price of a new house, according to a new report.

    In a paper published by the National Bureau of Economic Research, Arik Levinson said that energy codes enacted in California in 1978 were supposed to reduce energy consumption by 80 percent.

    But homes built since then actually don't use less energy, even though the codes have added thousands of dollars to the cost of construction.

    http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/blogs/dept/green-building-news/study-green-building-codes-don-t-save-energy?utm_content=bufferde198&utm_medium=social&utm_source=linkedin.com&utm_campaign=buffer

    I was wondering if the same was true here?
  2.  
    Depends what your cut off date is doesn't it?

    Old draughty Victorian single brick houses that haven't been upgraded are freezing regardless how much heating energy you put into them. (sometimes to the surprise of purchasers it seems reading around the internet!)/

    How much difference between a 2000 and 2010 house, probably not noticeable.
    • CommentAuthorDarylP
    • CommentTimeFeb 2nd 2015
     
    Well.....if you read the article it mentions the numbers of occupants, and also the AC demand IIRC?
    Not really a fair comparison......:sad:
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeFeb 2nd 2015
     
    Posted By: TriassicNational Bureau of Economic Research
    I'd put money on this being a right wing think tank.
    • CommentAuthorgravelld
    • CommentTimeFeb 2nd 2015
     
    They probably also won't work if they are never fully tested on all homes.
  6.  
    I'm intrigued as to what the Californian energy efficiency regs are. I'd bet they will be a lot different from here. Whats the biggest energy consumer there - is it AC or Heating?
    The one thing that surprise me is how few Americans seem to have Solar Thermal, which you'd think would be a no brainer
  7.  
    Also, reading the article, what it basically says is that the energy consumption dpends on the affordability of the energy. So as houses DO become more efficent, people build them bigger, and put bigger fridges etc in there. Basically people make a decision that they will spend so much on energy, and do that....More efficent houses and other devices just mean people have more of it.....
    • CommentAuthorTriassic
    • CommentTimeFeb 2nd 2015 edited
     
    Posted By: dimengineerMore efficent houses and other devices just mean people have more of it.....
    But are UK homes getting more efficient, or have we stood still over the last decade?
    • CommentAuthorDarylP
    • CommentTimeFeb 3rd 2015
     
    ... it depends on your measure of 'efficiency'?

    With the addition of larger (plasma!) TVs, DVD players, PCs, laptops,, tablets, mobiles I would suggest our kW electrical usage has gone up, but for gas CH, gone down...

    As 'fabric' standards have improved, the housing stock has generally improved, but not by enough:cry:
    • CommentAuthorGreenfish
    • CommentTimeFeb 3rd 2015
     
    Posted By: DarylPAs 'fabric' standards have improved, the housing stock has generally improved, but not by enough
    Should add standards for new or rennovated houses... the vast majority of housing is old cold and leaky, so overall the improvements in the stock are terribly slow.
    • CommentAuthorDarylP
    • CommentTimeFeb 3rd 2015
     
    .. but the OP related to new dwellings compared to older existant dwellings.
    However, yes I agree, more effort could/should be directed to improvements across the existing housing stock.
    • CommentAuthoratomicbisf
    • CommentTimeFeb 3rd 2015 edited
     
    Posted By: fostertom
    Posted By: TriassicNational Bureau of Economic Research
    I'd put money on this being a right wing think tank.


    Probably some outfit that argues that regulation is the root of all evil and that left to its own devices industry would make the best of all possible worlds ;)

    Ed
    • CommentAuthorCWatters
    • CommentTimeFeb 3rd 2015 edited
     
    "Recently built homes actually use more electricity than homes built prior to the 1978 building codes, but these homes are larger, built in warmer climates and have more residents than the pre-1978 homes."


    Sounds like more air con is to blame.
  14.  
    Posted By: danielbroadDepends what your cut off date is doesn't it?

    Old draughty Victorian single brick houses that haven't been upgraded are freezing regardless how much heating energy you put into them. (sometimes to the surprise of purchasers it seems reading around the internet!)/

    How much difference between a 2000 and 2010 house, probably not noticeable.


    That's because the housing market in the UK is so conservative and it has been drummed into people for decades that old is good, that it was built to last etc. Which may be true, but does not necessarily mean it performs well.

    You should have heard the prophets of doom when I was planning to buy this 1940s system built house, of what a bad choice it was and how a Victorian single skinned home would be better. Of course I ignored this nonsense but if you look at house prices you can see a single skinned terraced house (this is a semi) with a fraction of the garden, much more restricted on street parking within 500 m of here goes for almost twice as much.

    Ed
  15.  
    The article points out that houses built recently use as much energy as houses built pre 1978, but also points out that newer houses are larger, house more people, are built in warmer places and have more stuff.

    It's like saying my 2015 Ford Mondeo has the same sized fuel tank as my 1970 Ford Mustang V8. It's irrelevant, my Mondeo has air con, power everything and will go twice as far on a tank.

    Think what a 1978 house would have, gas heater, some light bulbs, a cooker, fridge freezer, a hi-fi, a 20" tv, maybe an atari.

    A 2015 house will have all of that plus several 30" screens a 40+ screen, microwave, icemaker, coffee maker, air con, auto garage doors, more computing power than the entire USA c1978.

    So by making things more efficient, we can have more for the same.

    The article does make the point that increasing price is the main driver for reducing consumption, and this is true. At the mo gas for heating and hot water costs me about a pound a day. We have the house at 20c, and use lots of hot water. We could cut our usage but with the standing charge etc it's not really worth it.

    Strangely enough my friend pays about the same for gas, but only has the heating on for half an hour in the morning and half an hour at night. His place is jumper and thick socks cold.

    So you could argue my investment in insulation has not been worth it as we use the same gas as a 1930s semi!
    • CommentAuthorrhamdu
    • CommentTimeFeb 3rd 2015
     
    Posted By: CWatters
    "Recently built homes actually use more electricity than homes built prior to the 1978 building codes, but these homes are larger, built in warmer climates and have more residents than the pre-1978 homes."

    You nailed it.

    We have a similar issue with house prices in the UK. Yes, there have been huge increases because of underlying land prices. And meanwhile, homes have got smaller, which makes it worse. But on the positive side, the average house is a better building today than the average house was in, say 1970. I know some building regulations have perverse effects, but most of them make today's homes safer, more comfortable and cheaper to run than those of yesteryear.

    Don't go on about the rising cost of a three-bedroom house unless you compare homes of similar size and quality.
    • CommentAuthorringi
    • CommentTimeFeb 3rd 2015
     
    Posted By: atomicbisf

    You should have heard the prophets of doom when I was planning to buy this 1940s system built house, of what a bad choice it was and how a Victorian single skinned home would be better.

    Ed


    I would not have brought it, as I know how hard it can be to get a mortgage on anything "odd", and one day you may need to sell it, and if buyers can't get mortgages...
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeFeb 3rd 2015 edited
     
    Posted By: atomicbisfsome outfit that argues that regulation is the root of all evil and that left to its own devices industry would make the best of all possible worlds
    unless of course the regulation is to industry's advantage
    http://act.sumofus.org/go/7480?t=1&akid=9195.3371200.lxFSgt
  19.  
    Posted By: ringi
    Posted By: atomicbisf

    You should have heard the prophets of doom when I was planning to buy this 1940s system built house, of what a bad choice it was and how a Victorian single skinned home would be better.

    Ed


    I would not have brought it, as I know how hard it can be to get a mortgage on anything "odd", and one day you may need to sell it, and if buyers can't get mortgages...


    Not really true unless it's a system deemed defective under the Housing Defects Acts (mostly PRC systems). None of the big high street lenders such as Halifax, Santander, Barclays etc had a problem, except for the asbestos roof covering which is replaceable. Smaller lenders can be more fussy, but they're not normally of much interest for a house of this value. Given there are about 33 000 BISF houses nationally and several hundred in town, it was pretty easy to find out how hard they are to sell, which locally is 'not very'. Typically no more than a few weeks on the market. Next door but one has just sold after no more than two months. And of course given there are so many, it's easy to find other people's experiences.

    Ed
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeFeb 3rd 2015
     
    Ed
    I suspect that 'next door but one' sold because of the area i.e. near to Bath, a desirable place.
    • CommentAuthorTriassic
    • CommentTimeFeb 3rd 2015
     
    Posted By: atomicbisfTypically no more than a few weeks on the market. Next door but one has just sold after no more than two months.
    Houses round here are sticking on the market for months, with a couple in our street being on for over a year. Funny old housing market!
  22.  
    Sorry it wasn't my intention to divert the topic to the relative merits of mid twentieth century system built housing ;) Just to give an example of the perhaps undeserved faith put in 'traditional' homes.

    Actually the person who bought the house next door but one saw my IWI projects on BISFhouse.com and contacted me before she made an offer as she recognised the house.

    Ed
  23.  
    Back to the rebound effect- the Jevons paradox is 150 years old, Khazzoom-Brookes postulate over 20, so the idea that we spend more as we save more is not new. It's human nature. As some kind of builder, what does upset me is seeing ever-increasing insulation requirements (ie u value decreases) being applied with such poor quality and great pace, that any thermal imaging survey would reveal the gulf between theory and practice. It's farcical...rant, rant
    • CommentAuthorDarylP
    • CommentTimeFeb 5th 2015
     
    ... surely the lack of site 'quality control' is no reason not to drive up standards via regulations?:devil:
    • CommentAuthorTriassic
    • CommentTimeFeb 5th 2015 edited
     
    Regulation does not drive standards.

    I'm sure we've all seen examples of poor workmanship and that "it'll be covered up so why worry" attitude, resulting in elements of a build that don't meet the regs.

    Here's a good example of External insulation that did not meet the standard - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-29818628
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeFeb 5th 2015
     
    "Subcontractor Kevin Drury admitted to BBC Radio Nottingham the work was unacceptable but said he could not complete the job because the firm that hired him, Geese Ltd, had gone out of business."
    • CommentAuthorDarylP
    • CommentTimeFeb 5th 2015
     
    .. if 'Regulations' doesn't , what does?... the industry... :bigsmile::bigsmile::bigsmile::bigsmile::bigsmile::cry:
    • CommentAuthorTriassic
    • CommentTimeFeb 6th 2015 edited
     
    During another BBC R4 piece earlier this week, the energy supplier stepped in after 4 other parties declined to do anything, the parties being the installer, the supplier, the trade body and I assume the regulator.

    To the energy providers credit, they put right the faults and provided the customer with copies of the various report produced by the failing 4 parties, something the 4 declined to do themselves.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b05126z1
  29.  
    Regulations that are not enforced are worth very little. You can't just introduce a piece of regulation and expect it to be followed if breaking it has no consequences. Classic example around here is where the council has cut the speed limits on most roads from 30 to 20 miles/h. It's virtually universally ignored as there is no enforcement.

    Ed

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