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Green Building Bible, Fourth Edition
Green Building Bible, fourth edition (both books)
These two books are the perfect starting place to help you get to grips with one of the most vitally important aspects of our society - our homes and living environment.

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    • CommentAuthorpgrbff
    • CommentTimeOct 30th 2014
     
    I have moved to Italy and having considerable timber available am about to install a 60kw gasification boiler and 5000l accumulator.
    I had always taken the view that the accumulators, 2 at 2500l each were too big to use with solar but failed to take it any further.
    I now need to incorporate solar dhw and have no idea if it is better to buy a third smaller accumulator and heat this with a combination of solar and primary water from the other accumulators or buy what I would consider a standard sealed hot water cylinder and heat this with a combination of solar and and primary hot water from the larger accumulators.
    Any thoughts? Would one be more efficient than the other?
    • CommentAuthorowlman
    • CommentTimeOct 30th 2014
     
    I went down the route of a dedicated, unvented, SS, DHW, solar cylinder, and I'm very happy with the result. I get solar DHW for about 5 months with another 3 or 4 months where it occasionally needs a little immersion boost, I'm in the N of England.
    For the remainder my solar DHW cylinder acts as a pre heat for my PHx input which comes into operation during the winter log gas burning season. You could do similar, but substituting my immersion and PHx for your extra accumulator fed coil. Obviously you'd need a twin coil DHW cylinder.
    As for efficiency, one system over another, 6 and two 3s, IMO. There will be those who will crunch the numbers and give a more definitive answer. I wanted something simple, a cylinder temp readout with twin immersion switches next to it. For the winter burning season, a DHW flow changeover lever suitably labelled,
    (summer/ winter). No fancy thermo switches linked to by passes and valves etc., all manual, and about as fool proof as I could make it, but it seems to work fine.
    I also put in plenty of isolating valves so I can do any maintenance to various sections of the system, without a full drain down.
    • CommentAuthorringi
    • CommentTimeOct 30th 2014
     
    Using a solar cylinder as a preheat, so the stored water only gets warm for a few months of the year gives a high risk of legionnaires disease.
    • CommentAuthorGotanewlife
    • CommentTimeOct 30th 2014 edited
     
    Hi Paul, Duncan here (Umbria, near Foligno but 500m agl); where are you? I have a 450m2 house that I am renovating, a circa 1960 self build ie a "casa di campagna". Roof done with 100mm EPS then ventilation for cooling. Working my way through the single pane, slide fit glass, windows at present. I am using a 40kW Wood burner with a 2500 litre tank so the first thing I have to ask is how big is your house/why do you need a 60kW monster? I too have lots of very local wood, paying E10/quintali for dry 50cm cut and split.

    Now then to your question: it all depends on whether you have bought your TSs or not. The best answer by far is rarely used in the UK and that is a tank-in-tank. This a 2500 litre TS with another 350 litre tank (for DHW) inside it mounted at the top; critically the solar is connected to the TOP coil and the wood burner in the bottom. (as an aside, also contrary to UK norms, get FPs not ETs). The mains pressure cold water is simply plumbed through DHW tank, refresh time is in effect instant and the relative quantities used/involved don't cause any destratification issues. I have 5 cheap FPs and 5 living in my house; the solar is enough for all my needs for the entire heating off season (6 months for me here). If I get 2 or 3 days full cloud at the beginning or the end of the off season then I have to burn but this happens about 2 or 3 times pa - ie from mid April to Mid Oct (actually almost made Nov this year!). Even simpler than Owlman's! And with less tanks there is less of a standing heat loss. On the other hand during winter sun the tank is not really cool so you collect less free sun however, I always burn late pm early evening so the tank is down to 40 deg ish during the mid pm so I don't lose it all by any stretch.

    Of course you won't want an immersion option will you! I did the whole install myself (my first proper plumbing job!) so if you are DIYing it, and not that experienced, I can tell you where I messed up.
  1.  
    Lots here now discussing whether PV is now better than ST, and many coming down in favour of PV. Here if you size ST for spring and autumn then there is overkill for 3 - 4 months in the summer however when you have your DHW tank full from your PV you can then use the power for anything else. Also if your TS is not too conveniently positioned for your roof then it's easier to run cables than heavily insulated pipes. (here a 4kw PV is about 6500 euro, installed)

    The generally spoken of ratio for TS to boiler size is 50:1 so 60kw = 3000. Also a single TS is easier to install and manage than 2 coupled TSs, and less surface area = less losses. Is there a good reason to have 2 x 2500 ? or is it too late?

    I have just upgraded my system (40 kw wood gasifier) and decided on 1 x 2000 TS and a separate 300 DHW tank driven off the TS via a coil in the DHW tank. It's still in commissioning phase but seems to work OK.
    • CommentAuthorEd Davies
    • CommentTimeOct 31st 2014
     
    Adding to PiH's PV comments:

    + PV for heating can be more cost effective in low light/cold outside conditions thereby extending the potential solar-heating season, particularly if adding further heat to a tank which is already warm or hot (essentially, the tank temperature doesn't affect the efficiency of a PV/immersion combination), but

    - PV takes up a lot more roof space for a given power output.
    • CommentAuthorGotanewlife
    • CommentTimeOct 31st 2014 edited
     
    Posted By: GotanewlifeOf course you won't want an immersion option will you!
    Unless you go PV :cool:

    PV is definitely something to look at but it won't reduce how much you have to burn because you space heating demand vastly exceeds what the sun can give you (PV or solar) and solar alone will cover the whole of your non-heating season. Nevertheless, PV has many advantages such as simplicity and convenience as touched on by Peter. I also have PV but I bought in when the tariffs were good. So it's all about your roof - do tell!
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeOct 31st 2014 edited
     
    Posted By: GotanewlifeI also have PV but I bought in when the tariffs were good
    But you possibly paid 2 or 3 times the current installation price :wink:

    Whichever way you look at it, RE is a very diffused resource. But always worth considering.
    Much easier to route a few wires than water pipes.
    • CommentAuthorpgrbff
    • CommentTimeNov 3rd 2014
     
    Peter in Hungary.
    In Italy the ratio used is more typically 25:1 for some reason, and everyone burns 2,3 or even 4 times a day. With one burn I hope to nearly fill the 5000l, and hopefully not have to burn again for a day or so. I would have preferred a single tank but too big to get through existing doors.
    To be honest it hadn't even occurred to me to use PV for DHW.
    • CommentAuthorEd Davies
    • CommentTimeNov 3rd 2014 edited
     
    Posted By: Peter_in_HungaryLots here now discussing whether PV is now better than ST …
    By “here” do you mean on this forum or in Hungary?
  2.  
    Both, but mainly here (in Hungary)
    • CommentAuthorEd Davies
    • CommentTimeNov 3rd 2014 edited
     
    Interesting. In Hungary, are there any FITs or RHI-type things to affect the decision? Electricity prices are higher in Hungary (Nov 2013: €0.2353/kWh in Budapest vs €0.1775/kWh in London [¹]) yet the € price of PV looks similar to the £ price.

    How many are actually heating water with PV or are they just talking about it? Are we talking Immersun type things or dedicated PV into an immersion somehow?

    [Ă‚Âą] http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-25200808
  3.  
    Posted By: pgrbffIn Italy the ratio used is more typically 25:1 for some reason, and everyone burns 2,3 or even 4 times a day
    Not my experience around here. I know of 3 supplier/fitters in Umbria who are all a lot more clued up. And I never burn more than once a day!
  4.  
    There is no support for installing PV (last year there was a grant for companies but it was not available for real people) The FIT is based on the cost of production so no profit there. The biggest drawback is that if you produce more than you use and feed the surplus into the grid you are classed as a producer of power and you have to register for VAT and do VAT accounting for all of your power production even if you are only 1kwh over! - so no one produces more than they use and most keep a monthly tally to ensure that they don't go over.

    As far as I have seen most of the new solar roofs are PV, a change from a few years back when nearly all were ST. The usual set up is to heat the water then when its hot the power switches feed the grid to balance (or exceed) the usage. (Immersun style) The owners manually monitor the usage and if it looks like it is going into surplus they switch off the PV to avoid the VAT problems. Sounds good doesn't it!!

    Despite this there is private PV but usually those with spare cash and the inclination to want to stop paying the power companies.
    • CommentAuthorEd Davies
    • CommentTimeNov 3rd 2014
     
    Thanks for the details. Sounds like the choice of PV is happening on a physics basis but is it a real FIT (strictly feed-in) scheme or a generation scheme as it is in the UK? However, what does:

    Posted By: Peter_in_HungaryThe FIT is based on the cost of production…
    mean? Given that the marginal cost of production of PV electricity is zero. Do you mean it's set at the cost of production for the main power stations?

    Yeah, that bit about having to be VAT registered if you produce surplus is rather daft, isn't it? It's a nice little exemption in the UK not having to declare it for income tax but I guess the admin costs to collect it for most would just be too much.
  5.  
    Posted By: Ed DaviesDo you mean it's set at the cost of production for the main power stations?

    Yes
    The VAT issue is daft, I suspect there was a bit of lobbying by the power industry to get a scheme that would deter too many people wanting to feed surplus into the grid as they see it as a bit of a nuisance.

    BTW the bureaucracy here is such that you can not do VAT returns without the help of an accountant!
    • CommentAuthorkebabman
    • CommentTimeNov 9th 2014
     
    <blockquote><cite>Posted By: Gotanewlife</cite> The best answer by far is rarely used in the UK and that is a tank-in-tank. This a 2500 litre TS with another 350 litre tank (for DHW) inside it mounted at the top; critically the solar is connected to the TOP coil and the wood burner in the bottom. (as an aside, also contrary to UK norms, get FPs not ETs). .</blockquote>

    Can anyone help with names of manufacturers of tank in tanks, of a size similar to the above, available in the UK please?
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