Actually this page says it does come with a "100% lifetime guarantee"

"Because Ecosoft Water Conditioners have been proving themselves in Australia for over 30 years, never failing to deliver the results we claim, we can give you a cast iron guarantee. As long as you’ve correctly installed the right size conditioner for your home, you can be confident it won’t ever let you down."

http://www.threesixtyplumbing.co.uk/ecosoft/how-it-works/

Kind of dodgy how they stick Energy Savings Trust's logo on their website though. I can't see mention of Ecosoft's product on Energy Savings Trust's website.

Do you mean this kind of conditioning is temporary?

(we have a combi)

I used a well known water conditioner at my last house and it didn't stop scale in the kettle. It didn't reduce the amount of soap needed. Eventually I bought a salt based softener.

Posted By: EcosoftWateri’m sorry you don’t like our brochure but it's certainly not psuedoscience, as we do have the full lab results to go with it, but they don’t make general reading for a domestic facing website - if you want them, please just ask.

Yes, please. Could you please post links to refereed papers in established journals?

hello again,
happy to answer the questions above in order for ease.
djh - these reports were done by independent labs but for our purposes in the early days to prove effectiveness as such no, i cannot post the links to them as they were not for publication but..

...Shevek - yes that’s a good idea to put the links up and we will do that asap. The website is still in its infancy in the UK and whilst we do have plans to do lots more we are adding info and pages (but only enough not to drown, clutter and confuse people) as we go along. We have a number of reports which we will action putting links to, because as you say they won’t clutter the site. if you want them in the meantime, please just email me.

The Ecosoft does both. The water that is treated as it turbulently goes over the alloy, ceases all further accumulation of limescale. Then as these galvanically treated mineral molecules come into contact with the established limescale, at a molecular level they convert their structure into their colloidal form and start to strip out the limescale present from the pipes. given the varied nature of limescale we cannot give any firm indication as to the timescale that this will take but we are seeking significant results in a few months on systems installed here. As such it eliminates limescale - however, a word of caution as i’m sure you’re already aware, in any system where there is a very high level of calcium, the water is often unable to remove all the calcium particles and as such a white dust or silt may remain - but this does not stick/precipitate and as such can be wiped away with ease, and is a calcium residue not limescale.

Guarantee - i’m sorry but that’s a disingenuous comment. no product, no system anywhere has an unlimited warranty, that would be profoundly stupid thing to do for any business given the vast array of things that are outside of your control. We are secure in the powerful effectiveness of our product and as such we give a 100% warranty as to its manufacture (any fault = replacement, as you confirm above) but also we guarantee its results and no other product (that i’m aware of) does that, and we do that for the lifetime of the unit, which given its manufacture and materials will outlive pretty much all of us on this forum - which we think is probably enough.

again hope this helps
best, Sam

I look forward to seeing the lab results and more detail of what testing was done. I hope you will post the links on your web site (or in this forum) so that a few of us can easily see and discuss.

I'm sorry if you don't like the term but the brochure _is_ pseudoscience... unscientific explanations and lack of real info dressed up with terms that may appear to non-scientists as evidence of scientific process.

For example:-

"The turbulence generated in the Eco-SoftWater Conditioner® creates an Electro-Chemical (galvanic) reaction between the crystalline minerals in the water and the catalytic alloy core".


But, benefit of the doubt etc, I suppose this could just be a result of dumbing down the science to something easier to explain to a novice. There is so much of this kind of thing out there that I think we are understandably a bit cynical.

I would certainly welcome some more detailed information.

"The turbulence generated in the Eco-SoftWater Conditioner® creates an Electro-Chemical (galvanic) reaction between the crystalline minerals in the water and the catalytic alloy core".

That sounds like the catalyst causes the dissolved metals to come out of solution and precipitate, possibly oxidisation. I've had fun with this in swimming pools, especially with oxalic acid. (calcium oxalate).

Hi there,

Ok, let me try and and answer these again in order. and i’ll try and be a bit briefer! if i don’t fully answer your question its not that i’m trying to avoid it, i’ve just misunderstood so please ask me again.

Guarantee - ok, i already have the legal team checking that its all legally correct for the UK and that we do protect our customers but that we also don’t leave ourselves wide open to abuse, and that includes the Consumer Protection Act but my understanding of that is that we cannot protect against injury to persons not to property - either way it will comply fully and thanks for providing feedback now, because now is the time we need to get this fine tuned and making sense for customers.
So the intent, which if it doesn’t say it now it will, is that the customer has a 100% warranty on the manufacture and material - any defects in that and we replace the unit. Regarding the efficacy, we say in our literature that it will remove and prevent all future limescale, indefinitely, and that is what the warranty’s second purpose is to deliver. So if limescale (not calcium silt) should appear again, then the warranty will cover that - its never been claimed on so far! We’ll look at making this more explicit in the warranty details but that is our intention.

Ok, pseudoscience it is not, and the terms used are entirely correct but we have had to adjust them a bit to make them more digestible and so they do need read as they do in the tech report - and this may be what you are picking up on. i don’t think saying that we “flocculate the minerals into their colloidal form’ and so forth generally works for our average domestic customer.

And i’m afraid i can’t see technically how i can get this info to you quickly other than by email as the website is designed to drive sales,and it does this partly by getting people to fill in the form to seek more detailed info - i’m not getting into a discussion here about the rights and wrongs of our marketing strategy, but this does mean that we are happy to forward to the info to folk who have contacted us, but not to lose this incentive but putting this level of tech detail up on the website. if anyone has any other ideas how i can share the reports with you without swamping this thread please let me know and i’ll do my best, i’m afraid the IT side of things is not more forte.

However, this is an excerpt from our report;
Several key occurrences take place which bring about the colloidal formation;
• The alloy core provides an immediate galvanic site upon which the ions can deposit.
• The minerals are attracted and repelled several hundred times before clearing the alloy core.
• Electrons are being captured from the water into the core and dispersed from the core back into the water, there is a very definite cathode-anode galvanic action.
• Nuclei have been introduced into the system as a result of the cathode-anode reaction and provide a more positive site around which the mineral particles can attract, as opposed to precipitating onto the walls of piping or equipment. The scientific name for this reaction is more readily known as “epitaxial nucleation”.
• The Zeta potential and surface tension of the water is reduced.

Again my email address is info@ecosoftwater.co.uk if someone here wants to get the reports to comment for others?

djh - thanks, your comments answering daserra’s point are spot on, even if i have no idea what ‘Israelachvili’ is ! and this unit is doing great work in numerous swimming pools in Oz, and we’re hoping to fit one in Cyprus shortly.

and i completely get the cynicism given what else is out there, but i’d just say again that this has been delivering impeccable results across Australia for over 30 years, and if it can cope with their water it can certainly cope with ours.

btw - if i don’t answer q’s before mid next week its because i’m on hols for a few days. (you’ve exhausted me!)

Best
Sam

This appears to be the same device that was previously called "Turbu-Flow"? Sold extensively in Australia?
Now sold in Australia by Pilbara Water as eco-softwater
Originally from Bauer Energy Design (their latest thing is nano-bubble water conditioners).

There are many other such devices on the market. Most have been debunked by others. Some electronic, some magnetic but also a good few "Catalytic" using special alloys and mysterious galvanic effects.
There is no need to just take my (BSc Biochemist) word on any of this though, a big list containing some of these devices (including the Turbu Flow) is here on Steve Lower's site. Steve is a well respected and qualified Bio and Physical chemist.

http://www.chem1.com/CQ
http://www.chem1.com/CQ/gallery.html

and some more scientific info/viewpoint here

http://www.chem1.com/CQ/catscams.html

Great website Sprocket, thanks.

Did anyone manage to get the lab reports emailed to them?

The reviews on reviewcentre.com don't seem that good for the Monarch Scaleout.

Oh how I wish I understood chemistry more.
Not sure, but do those reports actually say anything other than there did not seem to be any significant build up of scale after 15 months?

I wonder how many they have sold in Aylesbury, I know how hard the water is there.

Thanks Sprocket.