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Building Regulations and Standards: Wall gone

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  1.  
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeJul 18th 2009
     
    My friend is trying to buy a terraced house and a previous owner has removed the central wall between the two reception rooms without building regs

    In my view the HIP should have contained an engineers report on this -- am i wrong?

    What should he now do? (when he comes to sell it could stitch him up if he does nothing)
    •  
      CommentAuthornigel
    • CommentTimeJul 18th 2009
     
    My understanding is that after two years no action can be taken for works carried out without building regulations.

    He could therefore either rectify the situation by asking building regs to certify the work, get an engineer to check the work out for his own peace of mind or just leave it.
  3.  
    Agree with Nigel. Unauthorised work happens all the time. The important thing is that that work was done correctly and is structurally sound.

    I would investigate what kind of beam is installed and what bearings it has. Let us know here together with the types of loads above and someone should be able to tell you if its pukka or not
    • CommentAuthorchuckey
    • CommentTimeJul 19th 2009
     
    The worst case is that the roof purlins have trusses that terminate on the top of an upstairs wall, which then becomes the wall that was removed down stairs and is parallel to the upstairs floorboards. In this case a beam is required to support the upstairs floor and the upstairs wall wall and the roof.
    The best case is when the wall was a lath and plaster wall parallel to the downstairs ceiling joists (or at right angles to the upstairs floorboards) and there is no wall built over it upstairs. In this case a beam is not required and the removed wall was only a partition.
    Frank
  5.  
    <blockquote><cite>Posted By: chuckey</cite>The worst case is that the roof purlins have trusses that terminate on the top of an upstairs wall, which then becomes the wall that was removed down stairs and is parallel to the upstairs floorboards. In this case a beam is required to support the upstairs floor and the upstairs wall wall and the roof.
    The best case is when the wall was a lath and plaster wall parallel to the downstairs ceiling joists (or at right angles to the upstairs floorboards) and there is no wall built over it upstairs. In this case a beam is not required and the removed wall was only a partition.
    Frank</blockquote>



    Or double/triple up the joist on which the trusses are resting

    or run tie beams between the purlins to brace them
    • CommentAuthorbiffvernon
    • CommentTimeJul 19th 2009
     
    The partition wall thing that bot suggests is pretty likely. Pop round to the neighbours and ask to tap on their wall - it will have been constructed the same way.
  7.  
    Posted By: biffvernonThe partition wall thing that bot suggests is pretty likely


    No it's not! Every terraced house I've ever worked on has had a masonry wall dividing downstairs rooms.Whether it is loadbearing or not is another question but most likely upper floor joists at least.
    • CommentAuthorbiffvernon
    • CommentTimeJul 19th 2009
     
    Yes, actually I agree with you, Mike! Masonry supporting upper floor joists is the commonest construction for small Victorian terraces with partition wall above.
  9.  
    I was talking about a possible solution to reinforce the joists upon which any trusses are resting if there is a risk that the load bearing wall has been compromised

    Every terraced house I have seen has had a brick load bearing wall in the middle supporting the floor joists.
  10.  
    Posted By: biffvernonYes, actually I agree with you, Mike! Masonry supporting upper floor joists is the commonest construction for small Victorian terraces with partition wall above.


    Ah, you misunderstood Bots comment then. I believe he was suggesting the DOWNSTAIRS wall may have been a partition:

    Posted By: bot de pailleThe best case is when the wall was a lath and plaster wall parallel to the downstairs ceiling joists (or at right angles to the upstairs floorboards) and there is no wall built over it upstairs.
    • CommentAuthorcaliwag
    • CommentTimeJul 20th 2009
     
    You talk of trusses but, assuming this is Victorian or Edwardian there will be no trusses.
    The roof will be supported on the front and back walls (parallel with the removed wall), and purlins would also run from party wall to party wall.
    I agree that the first floor joists would most likely be supported on the, hopefully, now beamed opening as that span would usually be less than party wall to party wall.
    These are my observations from the North...pretty much pattern book stuff.:cool:
    • CommentAuthorCWatters
    • CommentTimeJul 20th 2009
     
    Tonly - Building Control will normally accept a retrospective application but they may want two things done 1) Calculations to show the beam used is suitable for the load (eg from an SE) and 2) The plaster removing from the ends of the beam to confirm the size and use of pad stones.

    Ideally his surveyor would have spotted that BCA hadn't been obtained before purchase and this would have given your friend the oporortunity to ask the seller to get it done, or drop the price to cover the cost of your friend doing it. If the work was done a long time ago and appears to have been done properly another option would have been to ask the seller to take out an insurance policy against Building Control turning up and demanding the work is done.
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeJul 20th 2009
     
    Upstairs wall is brick roof sags on over length purlins -- no purlin props (yet)
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeJul 20th 2009
     
    Even if there were purlin props these could be supported on a hanger from the ridge couldn't they?
    • CommentAuthorchuckey
    • CommentTimeJul 20th 2009
     
    Victorian/Edwardian roofs don't normally have a substantial ridge board ("purlin"?) running along the ridge, i.e. there is nothing to hang your hanger on! Even so still problem with first floor wall and floor joist support?
    Frank
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeJul 20th 2009
     
    yes still there is a floor lead and dead load of the wall upstairs -- likely there is a steel beam of some kind in there.

    Anyone want comment on if the HIP should contain a report about this?
    •  
      CommentAuthornigel
    • CommentTimeJul 20th 2009
     
    HIP's do not have to include a survey it is an optional extra and given that most people have their own survey done anyway a bit of a waste of money.

    Much more likley that the purchasers surveyor should have spotted it although he will probably only be liable if there is evidence of movement or a defect in the resulting structure. If it just a case of not having BR approval I cannot see how a surveyor is going to know when the work was done or if it has BR approval.

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