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Green Building Bible, Fourth Edition
Green Building Bible, fourth edition (both books)
These two books are the perfect starting place to help you get to grips with one of the most vitally important aspects of our society - our homes and living environment.

PLEASE NOTE: A download link for Volume 1 will be sent to you by email and Volume 2 will be sent to you by post as a book.

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    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeJan 12th 2010
     
    Is it better to spend on windows or insulation?

    If I had £2000 to spend on renovations should I use it to improve my fabric insulation or to buy new windows with?

    What are the returns like in either case?

    Which is the greenest option?
    • CommentAuthorjamesingram
    • CommentTimeJan 12th 2010 edited
     
    Stuff I've read seems to puts windows lower down on the list of priorities in home energy efficiency measures
    think mainly due to cost , so longer ROI in cash terms , money better spent elsewhere first to give greater reduction in energy use

    As you've mentioned before draught proofing windows is a higher priority if budgets limited
    • CommentAuthorTuna
    • CommentTimeJan 12th 2010
     
    How big are the windows of an average house? Two grand wouldn't go very far. You'd be better off with some heavy curtains and to spend on insulation and draught proofing I would have thought.
    • CommentAuthorjamesingram
    • CommentTimeJan 12th 2010 edited
     
    He's a passage from EST CE101 2006 .
    http://www.energysavingtrust.org.uk/corporate/Global-Data/Publications/Domestic-energy-efficiency-primer-CE101-GPG171

    A major source of energy loss is through windows and doors.
    Energy-efficient windows, when correctly selected and installed, will help to minimise the heating costs and
    will also increase comfort.
    Although savings from installing new windows are not as high as other measures (e.g. cavity wall insulation), it is important to recognise that windows are replaced very infrequently so another opportunity to install high-performance glazing may not arise for a number of years.
    Secondary glazing is a good option where thermal performance needs to be improved and the existing
    character of the dwelling needs to be maintained.
    Draught-stripping of existing badly fitting windows and doors is inexpensive and simple to install. It can
    greatly improve comfort as well as reducing heat loss.
    2.6.1 New windows
    When replacing windows, high-performance units should be specified as follows:
    Ideally, they should achieve a BFRC rating in band C. The ‘energy saving recommended’ logo will also
    be present on windows in band C and above
    Payback by specifying a BFRC rated C window, as opposed to E, is usually achieved within 5 to 6 years.
    Replacement windows should always be fitted by a reputable installer and sealed around the
    frame (to reduce draughts and air leakage at the wall-to-frame junction). In England, a FENSA
    registered installer should be used (please see ‘Relevant organisations and websites’).
    Replacement of windows in historically sensitive buildings should only be undertaken after consultation
    with the local authority’s building conservation officer.

    From CE83 .Energy-efficient refurbishment of existing housing
    http://www.energysavingtrust.org.uk/business/Global-Data/Publications/Energy-efficient-refurbishment-of-existing-housing-CE83-GPG155
    The greatest impact comes through the reduction of
    infiltration heat losses from minimising draughts
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeJan 12th 2010
     
    I m very surprised to read that windows can pay back in 5to 6 years presumably that includes the effects of eliminating draughts to help the pay back look this good?
    • CommentAuthorbillt
    • CommentTimeJan 12th 2010
     
    Whilst not untrue, that quote gives an excessively positive view of the value of replacing windows. it could have been written by the GGF!

    The trouble is it all depends on individual cases, but assuming a completely unimproved house, windows are the last thing to replace, if the existing ones are sound. Obviously, if the windows are to be replaced it makes sense to use high performance windows but all things being equal the heat loss through draft proofed single glazed windows isn't that high as a proportion of the total heat losses in a building.

    The old rules of thumb of cost effectiveness still apply.

    Cheapest and highest return - draught proof windows and doors.

    Ensure that there is at least 200mm of loft insulation with no gaps.

    If you have a hot water cylinder give it a good thick gapless jacket.

    If you have a cavity wall without insulation get it insulated.

    With only £2000 to spend windows would definitely be last on the list.
    • CommentAuthorjamesingram
    • CommentTimeJan 12th 2010 edited
     
    "Payback by specifying a BFRC rated C window, as opposed to E, is usually achieved within 5 to 6 years."

    I think you missed the " as opposed to E " bit , as in if you just replace them with rubbish low performing window , so a that bits misleading of EST

    check page 19 here for table of banding http://www.greenspec.co.uk/documents/refurb/solid-walledhouses.pdf
    example of band
    A = PVC 5 chamber ( surely a wood option also!) 3G, 2x low iron 1xhard coat , 16x2 argon fill cav. warmedge hybrid , U=1.3
    E= PVC 3 chamber 2G, hard coat, 16mm air cav., allumi. space, U= 2

    so payback for fitting the BETTER windows is 5-6 years
  1.  
    These DIY calculations from a USA, 1970s refurb shows a 1.6% ROI and 72 year payback for upgrading windows

    http://environmentalchemistry.com/gogreen/ecorenovation/70shouse/revisedreturnoninvestment.html
    • CommentAuthorjamesingram
    • CommentTimeJan 12th 2010 edited
     
    from the EST
    Energy Saving Recommended double glazing can cut heat lost through windows by half, as well as saving you around £135 a year on your heating bills. It can also save you around 720kg of carbon dioxide (CO2) a year.
    If everyone in the UK who needed double glazing fitted it we'd save around £700 million and the equivalent of around 740,000 households' CO2 emissions.

    So there's a figure to work with approx. £135/year ( 3 bed semi)

    http://www.energysavingtrust.org.uk/Energy-saving-assumptions

    http://www.energysavingtrust.org.uk/Home-improvements-and-products/Home-insulation-glazing/Glazing

    "The costs and paybacks shown are approximate, are provided for illustrative purposes only and are based on a gas heated semi-detached house with 3 bedrooms. The savings are the same as those used for CERT and we assume a gas price of 3.80p/kWh. SO NO FUEL INCREASEs TAKEN INTO ACCOUNT ?

    The savings also include a reduction factor for an effect known as 'comfort taking'. This is where a householder experiences a lower saving than could actually be achieved because they opt for a more comfortable living environment - this could be by leaving the heating on for longer than they need. The saving shown is therefore an average which includes this reduction, you could save more by making sure your heating controls are set correctly for the new needs of your insulated home"
    • CommentAuthorTimber
    • CommentTimeJan 12th 2010
     
    I noticed a HUGE difference when out old metal single glazed units were replaced with cheep upvc one (not very green I know, but its a rented house and not my call)

    The old windows were very drafty and I think from a subjective point of view the draftyness (or lack of) was the biggest improvement.

    It ment also that we could tolerate the CH stat set 2 degrees colder. We used to need it on 21*c to keep the house comfortable, and we can now tolerate set to 19 to get a similar level of comfort.

    As such we have saved not only through improved window U value, but reduced draft and as such being able to tolerate a lower air temp!

    Timber
    • CommentAuthormarsaday
    • CommentTimeJan 12th 2010
     
    i will save £200 a yr in heating bills as my current windows loose a lot of heat. new will be 66% more efficient. So i am looking at a 10 yr payback.

    best thing i did was to change the boiler when we moved in though. this is the biggie on saving money. We save £250-£300 a yr now on the gas bill thanks to new condensing combi as opposed to 20 yr old thermal store thing.

    Boiler cost £1000 plus install cost of £500, so 5-6 yr payback.
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeJan 17th 2010
     
    This sounds like 'how long is a piece of string' (answer: always an inch too short)

    You have to work out the areas of the windows and the areas of the wall/floors/ceilings/roof, their corresponding U-Values and do the sums. That is all there is too it, apart from knowing your local climate regime, and knowing how a spreadsheet works (though I often find paper, pencil and calculator is useful).

    If they are timber windows, have a look at just changing the glazing. I managed to fit new 4-16-4 units into my existing frames (also painted and repaired them) for about £600 for 13 windows each approximately 48" by 24") second best investment I have done, the first being £12 on V-Profile door draught excluder.

    Nick
    • CommentAuthorwookey
    • CommentTimeJan 19th 2010
     
    Steamy Tea - in principle that's all there is to it, but if window-replacement involves significant airtightness improvements (and it often does) that can actually be more significant than the U-value changes.

    In U-value terms clearly insualtion is streets ahead of windows. You can insulate the whole house to a reasonable standard for £2000. But in a house with single-glazed and or metal windows, with typical poor fitting you might find the windows gave a better subjective improvement.
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