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Green Building Bible, Fourth Edition
Green Building Bible, fourth edition (both books)
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    • CommentAuthorcubbs
    • CommentTimeNov 21st 2015
     
    Hi,

    I'm a plumber/heating engineer on the Isle of Man and a newbie to the renewables side of things. So please bare with me.

    It's a 70's two storey house. Cavity walls with pumped in loose rock wool insulation done in 1981. Loft has 300mm of knauf insulation. First floor joists have now 160mm knauf.

    Downstairs is uninsulated concrete with 50mm screed approx 120m2
    Upstairs approx 80m2

    1. My plan is to use an overlay ufh system downstairs over a 6mm superfoil insulation
    Overlay underfloor heating upstairs too over the chipboard if that is wise?
    Will add a separate circuit of 2 heated towel rails.

    2. I'm very keen on going for a thermal store but undecided on brands? Possibly Galu, Akvaterm or Solfex. Unsure on size? There are Five of us in our family. 3 daughters!


    3. I will hopefully go for solar panels in the spring. Again what's the recommended m2 of tubes? If these produce too much heat for a thermal store? Then is it an idea to somehow trigger the pump to circulate heat to heated towel rails circuit?

    4. We like the look of the Walltherm Zebru. This will be connected to thermal store along with an existing oil fired boiler. Are the Zebru fires as efficient and does the flame look as good as in their videos?

    5. Am waiting on a quote for a Windhager WinFire decorative looking pellet boiler. Any good? This or the Walltherm would be our main fire in an open plan family room/kitchen.

    All suggestions and ideas will be of great help

    Thanks.
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeNov 21st 2015 edited
     
    First things first.
    Measure your daily energy usage for the next couple of months. If you can work out your water usage as well, even better.
    Then it is relatively easy to work out what you really need.

    As for Solar Thermal (ST), even self fitting and maintaining is probably going to be more costly that a MCS installed Photovoltaic (PV) system. Self installing PV may work out even cheaper.
    It does depend on your roof area and angles though. PVGIS and the Energy Saving Trust websites are the places to play about with setups and see what you can get from them.

    Most of us are wary of pellet boilers, with or without RHI. There is a boom in them at at moment, but if the RHI is reduced too much or even removed, expect pellet prices to increase. They are already at about the price of natural gas (does the IoM have gas?). Also they are anything but environmentally friendly or carbon neutral.

    Have you looked into Heat Pumps (HP), either air source (ASHP) or ground source (GSHP). With ASHP the main thing to remember is that they frost up, so even if they do claim to have a decent Coefficient of Performance (CoP), they have an even better one at a lower output temperature.
    Oversize is the rule with ASPHs.

    Anything with the word 'foil' in it makes many of us nervous. There is a whole, and very long thread, on here about Multifoil Insulation (MF, sometimes refereed to as the M Word). It is still rumbling on many years after it was started.
    Realistically, 6mm is not going to give you much in the way of insulation.
    Thermal Conductivity is measured in W/(m.K).
    So if you take the best that Wikipedia has to offer, which is Perlite in a partial vacuum, it has a value of:
    0.00137 W/(m.K)
    So with a bit of algebra, a 6 mm layer of that will allow 0.23 W of energy to pass though it for every degree difference.
    If the floor temp is 15°C and the plates are 35°C, then that will be 4.56 W/m^2.
    50 m^2 of that will use nearly 3 kWh/half day in just losses.

    So can you insulate more underneath it?

    Also look at your airtightness, the more air that leaks out in an uncontrolled way, the more you have to heat to replace it.

    (It is late and I may have got the sums wrong, others will come and check them I am sure).
    • CommentAuthorcubbs
    • CommentTimeNov 21st 2015
     
    Thanks for your comments

    I'm kind of thinking of in the future when the oil boiler gives up then I'll fit a big ashp

    We're not too keen on the idea of digging up the screed or concrete. I've taken up one screeded floor to sort the levels out. I was hoping for the subfloor to be fairly flat and lay 50mm kingspan on there.

    I suppose we could go to 25mm kingspan with the overlay boards on top.

    Or I see if lintels can be raised and lift the door casings accordingly. Otherwise I'll have a Hobbit type doorways

    Decisions, decisions!!

    Thanks
    • CommentAuthorcubbs
    • CommentTimeNov 21st 2015
     
    New windows and external doors are going in.

    I'll get everything as air tight as possible. Seal every gap I can possibly find?
  1.  
    Posted By: cubbs4. We like the look of the Walltherm Zebru. This will be connected to thermal store along with an existing oil fired boiler. Are the Zebru fires as efficient and does the flame look as good as in their videos?

    I would be a bit nervous about this stove (or any other stove) that is installed in a room to provide the main heat for the house and DHW. The stove you cite gives 4.5kw to the room and 10kw to water. The idea behind modern gasification stoves is that you run them flat out to get the efficiency. If you close them down efficiency drops off and pollution starts.(starting with tarring up the chimney). So to run the stove you will get 4.5kw to the room as a point source of heat whether you want it or not. OK this will be mid burn, less at each end, but that's a lot of heat that will be difficult to move around that you can not avoid every time you want to heat up the thermal store (TS) and if you have your UFH running then this usually has a long hysteresis (unlike radiators which are quicker to react) so I can see problems balancing the heat demands with the stove and the UFH.

    Don't underestimate the amount of wood needed (about 5kg / hour) and the amount of mess loading and cleaning a stove of this size creates. Wood stoves are messy.

    The typical TS would have a ratio of 50:1, that is 50 lts / kw so 10kw to water gives a 500ltr TS. (I have a 40kw boiler and a 2000 ltr TS and it works fine). The TS should be located as close to the stove/boiler as possible and preferably piped to allow gravity circulation in the event of a power cut. You can't switch off the stove and whilst they need the fan to run there will be an amount of residual heat during a power cut which will wither need some sort of power backup for the pump or a gravity circulation to manage this.

    I can't help with commenting on TS brands, when I got mine I was so horrified by the prices in the market place I got mine manufactured by a local sheet metal fabricator!

    Whilst mentioning the fan needed to run a gasification stove have you thought of the noise of this fan as background noise when ever the stove is running.

    Most of my buildings are heated with wood (I have 5+ha of forest and one house that is rented out has gas + a wood stove) the wood heating is a mixture of a boiler and TS, conventional stoves and masonry stoves (wood fired storage heaters) As I said above heating with wood is messy and I would go for a boiler and TS in a non habitable space with direct access to the outside, and then have a wood stove as a secondary heat source / decorative effect.

    I would be nervous about a pellet burner. First you are reliant on a processed fuel over which you have little control. are there pellet producers on the IoM, how many? or are you reliant on delivery from the mainland? I agree with SteamyTeas' comments above.

    Can you get mains gas? probably a cheaper cleaner option.
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeNov 22nd 2015 edited
     
    As a heating engineer keen to use his skills, you won't like this, but ...

    The goal of real eco-building is to arrange the fabric - walls, roof, windows etc - to do all the work of keeping warm in winter/cool in summer - with the aim of doing away with all the fascinating machinery - boilers, rads, heat pumps, biomass etc. Solar panels (wet and/or PV) are something else, because the fabric can't take care of hot tap water (DHW) or electricity generation.

    PH or near-PH-standard insulation, airtightness and 24/7 mechanical heat recovery ventilation (MHRV) cuts spaceheating demand to a tenth or less, so that calculated solar gain, body heat, cooking and lighting can provide all the spaceheating load, for all but a very few extreme days of the year. Your existing crappy space heating system, even if it's an ancient floorstanding iron boiler, can provide that - a tiny top-up just a few days of the year - as well as contributing to DHW when the sun don't shine.

    So save your money on machinery, don't upgrade your heating, spend it on insulation, airtightness and MHRV. Of course you can replace ugly old rads with fewer, much smaller ones.

    Cavity insulation is better than nothing, but nowhere near - 200-250mm of black EPS external wall insulation (EWI), incl the system's thin-coat render, all over your walls.

    Roof insulation can be at loft floor level, but much better to take the tiles off, skin with OSB glued and screwed airtight, more EWI over that, uniting with the wall EWI; replace breather felt, cross-battens, tiling battens and tiles a bit higher up, incl increasing eave overhang if nec to cover the top of the wall EWI's thickness.

    You end up with an unbroken tea-cosy of insulation (and, to the roof, air tightness) dropped right over the fabric's exterior - highly effective for the money and providing opportunity to improve the building's look and 'styling' while you're at it. The existing masonry becomes entirely part of the interior thermal environment.

    New made-to-measure European triple glazed windows are incredibly cheap, £350/m2 or less, fully finished, from e.g. Russell Timbertech, Munster Joinery and a few others. They are mounted outboard, not touching existing masonry etc, within the EWI zone, giving you lovely deep window cills.

    Don't rip up your floors - dig an external trench right round the house, down to found bottom (but abs no lower) and run the wall EWI (unrendered) right down to there. Put a perforated pipe as french drain in the trench bottom and backfill with Lightweight Expanded Clay Aggregate (LECA) topped with topsoil. That way, your whole structure is guaranteed bone-dry from the ground, and you've created an insulation 'coffer dam' enclosing the block of subsoil (and any crawl space) under the house. It creates a long path, through the subsoil, for any heat loss down, curving outward and back up to the external surrounding cold ground surface, which is the major heat loss from any floor (straight down much less so). Even subsoil becomes an adequate insulator, given that long path length (insulation 'thickness').

    So, Fabric First, join the campaign to make your machinery unnecessary (except solar panels).
  2.  
    Posted By: fostertomdig an external trench right round the house, down to found bottom (but abs no lower) and run the wall EWI (unrendered) right down to there.

    Yes - but I would put a render coat on (without the acrylic top coat) as a mouse deterrent.
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeNov 22nd 2015
     
    Yes, and there other details to mention.

    Didn't we agree that just the 'nylon' render mesh reinforcement (which someone said is in fact glass fibre) wrapped over the u/ground EPS (held in place by dabs of base coat) would deter the varmints?
    • CommentAuthorcubbs
    • CommentTimeNov 22nd 2015
     
    Lots to think about there.

    I'm getting the windows and doors very soon. I take it if I was to fit EWI I'd need to order the Windows with some huge cills?

    Realistically we won't be able to go Passiv but I can certainly seal up as many gaps and draughtproof as much as poss.

    Does retrofitting passiv mean having a membrane somewhere all round the house or is it just sealing all gaps on the outside?

    I have worried about the Walltherm Zebru being to hot for the rooms and clashing with the ufh. There is an insulated version that throws out less heat to the room.

    Am I right in thinking that if the house was well enough insulated then an ashp might do the job of heating a thermal store? I would like to eventually do away with the standard efficiency oil boiler and dodgy looking steel oil tank. Mild climate over here. Pretty much 10degrees through the winter.

    Gas is SO expensive on IOM.

    Thanks
    • CommentAuthormike7
    • CommentTimeNov 22nd 2015 edited
     
    Posted By: fostertom
    Don't rip up your floors - dig an external trench right round the house, down to found bottom (but abs no lower) and run the wall EWI (unrendered) right down to there. Put a perforated pipe as french drain in the trench bottom and backfill with Lightweight Expanded Clay Aggregate (LECA) topped with topsoil. That way, your whole structure is guaranteed bone-dry from the ground, and you've created an insulation 'coffer dam' enclosing the block of subsoil (and any crawl space) under the house. It creates a long path, through the subsoil, for any heat loss down, curving outward and back up to the external surrounding cold ground surface, which is the major heat loss from any floor (straight down much less so). Even subsoil becomes an adequate insulator, given that long path length (insulation 'thickness').


    It would be as well to know what the subsoil - or rock? - is for 1st 2 or 3 metres down and how wet it is down there to get at least some idea that it will actually provide a sufficient improvement in insulation to warrant the effort. I've an idea it rains a fair bit where you are .
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeNov 23rd 2015 edited
     
    Posted By: cubbsif I was to fit EWI I'd need to order the Windows with some huge cills?
    With say 200mm EPS EWI, you'd mount the windows with their outer face about 80mm inboard of the external rendered face so you'd order, with the windows from e.g. Russells, enamelled pressed aluminium subcils with 97mm projection. Easy.

    Posted By: cubbswe won't be able to go Passiv
    Near-PH standard is easily achievable with a thorough-going EWI + windows solution as described, and will make expenditure on a new, modernised or uprated heating system unnecessary because your extg system will only get called upon (for space heating) for only a few days of the year and (for top-up of water heating) only when your solar panels won't do it unaided.

    Posted By: cubbsDoes retrofitting passiv mean having a membrane somewhere all round the house or is it just sealing all gaps on the outside?
    Two kinds of membrane -
    First the airtight 'membrane' - the glued and screwed OSB over the top of the rafters will provide that for the roof, and for the walls internal wet plaster on masonry and/or external render can be a good airtight layer, as long as make whichever one really continuous - you just have to join the roof airtightness up to the wall airtightness.
    Second a water-vapour tight membrane - you don't necessarily need that, if you rely on a 'breatheable' approach - more to be said about that.

    Posted By: cubbsI have worried about the Walltherm Zebru being to hot for the rooms and clashing with the ufh. There is an insulated version that throws out less heat to the room.

    Am I right in thinking that if the house was well enough insulated then an ashp might do the job of heating a thermal store? I would like to eventually do away with the standard efficiency oil boiler and dodgy looking steel oil tank.
    The message is, you won't be needing a heating system at all, tho a stove-like thing could fit in.

    Posted By: mike7It would be as well to know what the subsoil - or rock?
    Mike's caution is I think about whether the 'coffer dam' insulation idea will work very well, or merely be a significant improvement, depending on whether u/ground water movement will take some, or a lot, of the stored heat away. I'd say that this approach isn't advisable with UFH, which does need good insulation directly under it - but otherwisem, in a near-PH as described, a 'coffer dam'd' floor may be the least-insulated part, but that will be massively over-compensated by the the rest of the insulation, and saves you tearing up the floor.
    • CommentAuthorcubbs
    • CommentTimeNov 23rd 2015
     
    So handy this forum. Thanks for helping me.

    How are the Windows fixed into EWI? Or more relying on the reveals holding them tight?
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeNov 23rd 2015
     
    Posted By: fostertomyou just have to join the roof airtightness up to the wall airtightness

    Not impossible for an external air seal on the roof and an internal one for the walls as you propose, but not trivial either.

    earlier fostertom wroteRoof insulation can be at loft floor level, but much better to take the tiles off, skin with OSB glued and screwed airtight, more EWI over that, uniting with the wall EWI; replace breather felt, cross-battens, tiling battens and tiles a bit higher up, incl increasing eave overhang if nec to cover the top of the wall EWI's thickness.

    Well worth doing, but definitely not trivial. Start with planning permission for the higher ridge line, then make sure there's a good design for the wall-roof junction that gives continuous airtightness and continuous insulation and also includes support for the eaves and verges overhangs, then make sure it is built to the design. I'm sure FT can help with some suitable details, but make sure you understand everything fully.

    Posted By: cubbsHow are the Windows fixed into EWI? Or more relying on the reveals holding them tight?

    Typically supported from the reveals, either by metal straps or pins, or by a projecting OSB box.
    • CommentAuthormike7
    • CommentTimeNov 23rd 2015 edited
     
    Quoting FT :-"Mike's caution is I think about whether the 'coffer dam' insulation idea will work very well, or merely be a significant improvement, depending on whether u/ground water movement will take some, or a lot, of the stored heat away"

    Er well ... it's also about whether it might be a waste of effort for an insignificant improvement. The IOM house could easily be on a metre of soil over moving groundwater or runoff. For a 100m sq slab I calculate the average u-value, if the soil is dry enough to have a conductivity of 1.0 (in the customary units!), would be 1.23, and adding a vertical metre of insulation 375mm thick would reduce that to 1.10.

    If that is the situation down below or something like, and it was me doing the digging I'd be looking hard at relaying the floors with insulation under.
    • CommentAuthormike7
    • CommentTimeNov 23rd 2015 edited
     
    And another thing ... the .13 improvement doesn't seem much relative to the high original, but I find you'd only get a .21 improvement by adding the insulation if the slab was on deep subsoil rather than just 1 metre. The percentage improvement would look better, but it would be the actual figure that matters as that pays the bill - or not.

    Should maybe start a new topic if we need to say more.
    • CommentAuthorcjard
    • CommentTimeNov 23rd 2015
     
    Someone on the rock must hire out mini diggers suitable for getting through a doorway if you fancy taking the slab out.. I know my brother did it with his place down south ..

    Gas prices on the island are high indeed, something to do with a scandal a few years back involving disappearing funds/directors but I don't recall the details.

    Very much doubt they have MCS anything, RHI etc.. It's like a version of England from decades ago. One look at the permitted development regulations for example, and you just know that the house of keys is a group of farmers banging out laws by writing a few notes up based on what the uk has done recently :)

    Don't know how crazy you'll go on insulation in the end but I can't imagine that it's cheap.. Either wait til bnq have a sale on(uk sets their prices) or look into whether it's economical to get secondsandco.co.uk to ship to Heysham and have graylaw pick it up.
    • CommentAuthorcjard
    • CommentTimeNov 23rd 2015
     
    <blockquote><cite>Posted By: cubbs</cite>So handy this forum. Thanks for helping me.

    How are the Windows fixed into EWI? Or more relying on the reveals holding them tight?</blockquote>

    Sometimes being told about the million different options you didn't know existed is a blessing. When building a house, I think it's not always.. :)
    • CommentAuthorcubbs
    • CommentTimeNov 25th 2015
     
    If the outside ground level is say 300-400 mm about the footing along part of the house, is it worth EWI the plinth from the Dpc downwards? Ok it has wind and rain at the wall but will it lose as much heat as say the back of our house where the ground level is only 100mm down from Dpc.

    Cheers
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeNov 25th 2015 edited
     
    Mike7 has the tech advantage of me at the mo - until I have time to do some more research/simulation - see
    http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=13792&page=3#Item_18

    So I'll withdraw my suggestion of downstand perimeter vs under slab insulation.

    Unless you know more about the subsoil you're standing on. If it's permanently 'dry' (except for down-percolating rain water), prob solid rock, or free-draining shaley rock, both well above water table - or waterproof clay maybe - in other words if sure there's no water table rise-and-fall, and no horizontal u/ground water flow in the top few metres of the subsoil - then mike7's caution about water carrying away stored heat won't apply.

    He's postulating a worst-case u/ground scenario - but that may be right.
    • CommentAuthorringi
    • CommentTimeNov 25th 2015
     
    Remember that the thermal bridge at the bottom of the wall is also reduced with downstand perimeter.
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