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Green Building Bible, Fourth Edition
Green Building Bible, fourth edition (both books)
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    • CommentAuthorShevek
    • CommentTimeMar 5th 2012 edited
     
    We're doing a rear extension and a loft conversion. In the process we're going to externally insulate and then render.

    It's a mid-terrace house and the existing materials are brickwork and pebble dash, although our place is purely pebble dash.

    Under condition A.3 (a) of permitted development it says
    "the materials used in any exterior work (other than materials used in the construction of a conservatory) shall be of a similar appearance to those used in the construction of the exterior of the existing dwelling house"

    Strictly speaking this kind of says to me it's not permitted development... although it could perhaps be argued that pebble dash and render are similar, particularly from a distance. Except, I guess, that I'm proposing our render to be off-white (as opposed to golden/brown colour it is now). In any case it's certainly not a listed building and there are examples around the neighbourhood where render has been introduced.

    There's also the matter of the front wall getting pushed out 170 mm towards the highway by the insulation. Don't know where that fits into things. It will still be within the depth of the existing eaves.

    http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/uploads/100806_PDforhouseholders_TechnicalGuidance.pdf
    • CommentAuthorTimSmall
    • CommentTimeMar 5th 2012
     
    Maybe, the legislation is unclear. I believe it boils down to whether or not the enlargement is considered to be "de minimis" or not.

    I ended up applying for planning permission (just for the EWI, not the loft conversion, or rear extensions, which fall under PD) in the end to avoid hassle. It was passed.

    Then after all that, last week I changed my mind and decided to rebuild the 1st floor inner skin instead on just the front elevation (inserting 100mm Celotex in the cavity, air-tightened, and using 100mm aerated blocks) for aesthetic reasons (and to keep my next-door neighbour happier since it's a semi - it also helped get the airtightness between the front wall - pebble-dash render coat is my main airtightness layer - and the party wall).

    Ask your local planners informally?

    Cheers,

    Tim.
  1.  
    This has always been a point of great discussion. As you say, strictly speaking, the materials would not match. But most planners would take the view that rendering a brick or pebbledash house would be permitted development, others would say that it is only PD if some of the existing building is rendered (so you have an "appearance to be similar to") The "materials used in the construction" would be the same as they are not changing, they are just being EWI'd. Also there is the argument that if you painted it first, then rendering it afterwards would look quite similar.

    Others would take the view that rendering (or indeed pebbledashing) is PD on a house if it is not in a conservation area, by the suggestion that it is only restricted at A.2 (a) for houses in conservation areas [Article 1(5) Land]

    i.e. it is not PD on article 1(5) Land, so it must be PD elsewhere.

    Then comes the issue of the projection of the EWI
    The PD regs don't seem to have taken into account EWI which suggests that it is still quite unusual.
    If you EWI the front of your house at the depth you are talking about (170mm) then in theory it is an extension forward of the principal elevation which is not PD (nor on the side if 2 storey house). This is obviously more noticeable on a semi or a terrace, but not such a big deal on a detached property.

    PD regs have along way to catch up with what is required to deal with the existing housing stock, possibly in a nod to keeping neighbour relations amicable or being unable to let go of the "brick standard" as the appearance of a "house". What if you want to EWI and clad with timber? or something else? is it PD then?

    If in doubt ask the LPA (if you are lucky and they haven't started charging for pre-application enquiries) and if necessary submit a planning application for £150 before they hike the price up. I am sure it will be approved.
    If it isn't contact me privately.
    • CommentAuthorjamesingram
    • CommentTimeMar 7th 2012 edited
     
    I contacted 2 local Pd about this issue , one was unsure where to find an answer , the other took the view it was PD or a least didn't require planning ( I was discussing EWI up to 200mm thick on the principle elevation)
    I'd be with the group that says do it , because nobody would really give a toffee anyway.
    (as long as your not in a conservation area , or listed building or your neighbours a nutjob busy body (might be worth running it by them first if so))
  2.  
    Posted By: jamesingramone was unsure where to find an answer


    That's because there isn't one.
    Just 'opinion' or 'interpretation'
    which is where it gets subjective!
    • CommentAuthorCWatters
    • CommentTimeMar 8th 2012 edited
     
    Apply for a Certificate of Lawful Development on the grounds that the work is "de minimis".

    This issue has come up before..
    http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=7352

    At worse they can decline to issue a certificate and hence require you to apply for planning permission. If you get a certificate it means they can't change their minds later and decide you did need planning permission.
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeMar 8th 2012
     
    I would have thought that covering pebbledash should be compulsory, and come out of council taxes (I live in a pebbledashed house).
    • CommentAuthorShevek
    • CommentTimeMar 12th 2012 edited
     
    Hehe, yeah pebbledash is horrible stuff.

    I'm going to come unstuck in some other areas though I think.

    One problem is that if you're within 2 m of the boundary then the whole of an extension cannot exceed 3 m in height. We're mid-terrace and I've designed a full-width ground floor extension with a 10º pitched roof, of which the very highest part is 3.5 m. :sad:

    I wish I'd found this technical guidance earlier! The miniguide thing on the planning portal isn't enough.

    Wondering whether to skip the certificate of lawful development and just go with a planning application now.
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeMar 12th 2012
     
    What about building regs part L1b ? They say that when you re render you must insulate too!
    • CommentAuthorShevek
    • CommentTimeMar 12th 2012 edited
     
    Posted By: tonyWhat about building regs part L1b ? They say that when you re render you must insulate too!


    Yeah, we're adding external insulation to front and rear walls and internal insulation to party walls.
    • CommentAuthorShevek
    • CommentTimeMar 12th 2012
     
    Posted By: ShevekOne problem is that if you're within 2 m of the boundary then the whole of an extension cannot exceed 3 m in height.

    I got this wrong. I've re-read it and it says "the maximum height of the eaves that is allowed for all parts of the proposal is three metres", not "the whole of the extension".
    • CommentAuthorShevek
    • CommentTimeMar 12th 2012
     
    Which does, however, leave one area where I might come unstuck regarding our loft conversion.

    Clause B.1 (b) says "the edge of the enlargement closest to the eaves of the original roof shall, so far as practicable, be not less than 20 centimetres from the eaves of the original roof."

    Our design involves simply raising the rear external wall (to form the rear wall of the loft conversion) and applying 160 mm of external installation. If we weren't applying the insulation it would be fine because the existing eaves is 200 mm. I'm going to argue that it isn't practicable on these grounds and that we won't be projecting past the existing fascia board.
  3.  
    Posted By: Shevek"the edge of the enlargement closest to the eaves of the original roof shall, so far as practicable, be not less than 20 centimetres from the eaves of the original roof."


    This one doesn't usually cause any problems. There are many cases where it is accepted as not practicable to comply with this bit. It really applies to dormers (Class B) and it excludes hip-to-gable enlargements (which this sounds a bit like?)

    An obvious case where it would not be practicable is where you want to continue up with a masonary wall as leaving a 20cm gap would not make sense structurally.

    If you want me to have a look I will give you an opinion on whether it is PD (if you have some plans).
    •  
      CommentAuthorted
    • CommentTimeApr 3rd 2014 edited
     
    .
    • CommentAuthorrhamdu
    • CommentTimeApr 3rd 2014
     
    About a year ago the government issued guidelines that EWI should generally be permitted development. It wasn't law, and it seems to be down to each council whether it follows the guidelines.

    Unless you want to do the whole thing under the radar, I think you need to ask your council. Either just phone up the planning department informally, or go for a pre-application meeting. Ask what their policy is, and how they are handling the government guidelines, and whether anything apart from the insulation itself might be an issue - e.g. no longer having pebbledash.

    If they can't give you a straight answer, a Certificate of Lawful Development might be the next step. Even if you are confident there will be no comeback, some people still like to have a COLD - or full PP of course - to wave at the buyer's solicitors when the house is eventually sold.
    • CommentAuthorTriassic
    • CommentTimeApr 6th 2014
     
    Posted By: rhamduor go for a pre-application meeting.
    Our local planning department no longer offer this service, I was advised to talk to a local architect!
    • CommentAuthorTimSmall
    • CommentTimeApr 6th 2014
     
    I'm pretty sure that there was some case law whereby a local council took an individual to court saying that pebbledash -> render wasn't PD. The home owner appealed to the secretary of state and won. The case being "192 Birchwood Road" if you want to try and track it down - that was according to the very knowledgeable bloke who runs this site:

    http://planningjungle.com/
    •  
      CommentAuthorted
    • CommentTimeApr 7th 2014
     
    That property has had 4 planning appeals in the past few years:

    http://www.pcs.planningportal.gov.uk/pcsportal/fscdav/READONLY?OBJ=COO.2036.300.12.1514293&NAME=/2115554%20Decision.pdf

    http://www.pcs.planningportal.gov.uk/pcsportal/fscdav/READONLY?OBJ=COO.2036.300.12.2902092&NAME=/DECISION%20LETTER.pdf

    http://www.pcs.planningportal.gov.uk/pcsportal/fscdav/READONLY?OBJ=COO.2036.300.12.3682343&NAME=/Appeal%20Decision.pdf

    The relevant one as far as render is concerned is APP/T2215/X/10/2133726 which is included in the first of these.

    21. The appellant has drawn my attention to a number of appeal decisions where
    inspectors have expressed the view that a commonsense approach should be
    taken to what constitutes a ‘similar appearance’ and I find no reason to
    disagree with their findings. There is no requirement that new material should
    exactly match the existing and, in my view, smooth render appears similar
    enough to painted pebbledash render to meet condition A.3(a). I conclude
    that, in respect of the works to the elevation, they would be lawful and I shall
    issue a certificate of lawful development accordingly.
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