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Green Building Bible, Fourth Edition
Green Building Bible, fourth edition (both books)
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    • CommentAuthorRobL
    • CommentTimeMay 17th 2011
     
    As a prelude to getting whole house MVHR, I decided to sort out the leaks in our 1963 house. I have thought of it as "pretty good", so almost didn't bother. But then the DIY leak test idea came along, and it seemed pretty easy to do - so why not ?
    Anyway, here's a description:

    First I needed a 12V 10A or so car radiator fan. Ebay is our friend for this one. Any big car fan, I got one from a Toyota something or other. I picked one that didn't come with a radiator attached, and the piccy looked like it could be attached to a flat plate ok, and that was cheap.
    Then I picked a window to use - I've previously replaced all of the glass in our house, so I know how to take the windows out easily. I picked one in the downstairs loo - out of the way, so I could leave my "experiment" there for a while, and the family would just humour me.
    Take out the window glass (usually easy if uPVC surround & you know how), and create a plywood blank the same size of the window. Pad it out with wood so it's the same thickness as the glass- we need a tight fit here, then fit the fan to the wooden window blank. Fit it to blow out, so that the house is depressurised, and leaks are easy to feel for.
    I made a manometer too, out of a 2m length of 5mm diameter clear plastic tube. There's a U bend of tube in the house filled with water+a bit of quink ink. One end of the tube is in the house, the other is outside, both a metre or so away from the fan. 5mm height difference is equivalent to 50Pascals pressure difference between the two ends of the tube, and that's our target pressure.
    I borrowed a variable power supply from work to drive the fan- but in practice a 12V car battery, or a 10A+ battery charger would do, just wouldn't be adjustable.
    Anyway, here's a piccy of the installed fan. There's no finger-guard at the moment, so it's a bit of a health & safety nightmare.
    Hope somebody out there finds it usefull !
    • CommentAuthorRobL
    • CommentTimeMay 17th 2011
     
    +pic this time
    • CommentAuthorRobL
    • CommentTimeMay 17th 2011
     
    and again, from outside. Blue plastic to keep out draughts when not in use.
    • CommentAuthorRobL
    • CommentTimeMay 17th 2011
     
    zoom in of the corner of the window. I've left off the right hand side plastic clip, so you can see how the uPVC fits together.
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeMay 17th 2011
     
    Rob
    That is brilliant. We should all agree on a standard Toyota fan and compare (Compair: make of compressors) results. Shall ponder how to calculate pressure difference to leakage to send me to sleep.

    Does the fan have a part number on it? should be able to look it up on the interweb.

    Just thought, an amp meter would show the air resistance, but may not be accurate enough. Shall ponder more.
    • CommentAuthorwookey
    • CommentTimeMay 18th 2011
     
    Top work there. This has been pondered here: http://www.navitron.org.uk/forum/index.php/topic,9171.0.html but you have actually done it. Guess what I'll want to borrow sometime...
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeMay 18th 2011
     
    I would have undone the six hinge screws rather than take the glass out!

    The method will help find leaks but I cant see it giving results though it may be possible by comparative methods where progressively larger openings are formed of known size and working out on a graph the effects and subtending backwards to a base line?
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeMay 18th 2011
     
    If you measure the amps that the fan is drawing, the higher the amps the better the airtightness (more resistance). This combined with the manometer readings. Would initially take some basic tests to establish 'no resistance' to 'full resistance' readings, but that is only a box with an opening in it.
    Why a 'standard car cooling fan' would make it more meaningful.
  1.  
    Real air leakage tests use various sized openings in front of the fan as well as controlling the speed for a certain pressure. There is a complex relationship between the speed of the fan, the aperture and the air leakage that the commercial testing equipment calculates. See, for example, this report: http://www.doncaster.gov.uk/Images/sample%20report_tcm2-67593.pdf which was produced using Canadian equipment - see http://retrotec.com/large/Products/Software/FantesticPro.aspx

    However, the DIY system is good for finding where the air leakage is taking place.

    Paul in Montreal.
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeMay 18th 2011
     
    About time there was an iPhone app to do this, they know everything else about us.
    Shall read that report when I go to bed.
    • CommentAuthorbrig001
    • CommentTimeMay 18th 2011
     
    Anyone else think that all the sealing (fireplace, extractor fans etc.) before the test is a bit bonkers?
    •  
      CommentAuthorDamonHD
    • CommentTimeMay 18th 2011 edited
     
    Nope, not me anyhow. *Having* an open fireplace may be bonkers, in terms of heating efficiency, then worrying about air leaks...

    Rgds

    Damon
    • CommentAuthorRobL
    • CommentTimeMay 18th 2011
     
    The fan actually was listed on ebay as:
    Nissan 300zx z32 fairlady radiator fan
    It's got a sticker with "Calsonic 9 Made in Japan" on it, can't see anything else identifying on it.
    It's in decent condition, but it was only 99p, so will it's performance be like another one ?

    Running it hard, with the window next to it first closed then open, I get:
    15V@11.8A, pressure drop 65Pascals, airflow ?
    15V@10.8A, pressure drop 20Pascals, airflow massive

    I don't think the current is a good indicator of airflow or pressure drop. It would be very handy to have pressure v flow for a given supply voltage for the fan, maybe I'll get around to that somehow - I'm not sure how at the moment, as I don't know how to accurately measure the airflow. I could perhaps get it vaguely right by putting a cowl on the outside so I could hold a massive plastic bag to it, and time filling it.

    For now I think I'm happy using it find leaks. So far:
    Front & back door need new draughtproofing
    keyhole covers
    All sockets leak - bodging this with lots of silicon sealant
    Floor above inset front door leaks - I got Tescon 1 tape to have a go at this one
    Kitchen wastepipe ..easy fix with loadsa expandyfoam into gap, much of it going into cavity:-) I love expandy foam
    Downstairs solid floor.. will use Unibond 3in1 sealant after varnishing the floor & repainting skirting
    Little cracks under a few windowsills, fixed with sealant
    Lofthatch needs more draughtproofing - I think a door style one, fitted from in the loft with hatch shut
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeMay 19th 2011
     
    So Amps not accurate enough, shame.

    Mass airflow could be done with an old fashioned anemometer maybe.
    • CommentAuthorJoiner
    • CommentTimeMay 19th 2011 edited
     
    Identifying a potential low-risk investment, I have bought up every second-hand Nissan 300zx z32 fairlady radiator fan labelled "Calsonic 9 Made in Japan" previously available on the internet. They are available direct from me at the very reasonable price of £10 each + £15 p&p. :devil:

    Of if you see one of these parked in a back street and have a couple of 13mm spanners or sockets on you, then...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissan_300ZX
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeMay 19th 2011
     
    Posted By: brig001Anyone else think that all the sealing (fireplace, extractor fans etc.) before the test is a bit bonkers?

    I do think there's a case for running the test twice. Once with all the sealing, so as to figure out how well it was built, and once with no sealing at all, to see how it will actually perform in practice.

    But maybe you need the fire lit for the second test?
    • CommentAuthorRobL
    • CommentTimeJun 23rd 2011
     
    The floorboards above our inset front doorway leaked a lot of air from the leak testing. Exploring(!) showed that there was a large void, of some 2m*1m*0.6m below the floorboards immediately over the front door.
    So, I've filled this chock full of glass wool stuff. Then celotexed between the joists, then finished off with my favourite expandy foam and made airtight.

    Exploring some more found that even though our cavity wall is filled (with glass wool 8 years ago), the cavity wall associated with the front door wasn't. Don't know why - maybe they thought we wouldn't like the holes drilled there? Maybe they forgot ? Maybe they knew that the top of this cavity had no cavity wall plate - (which it didn't)?
    Anyway, taking matters into my own hands, I bought 3*100L bags of Silvapor, and poured it into the empty cavities. It went in a treat - piccy attached. Just took a coke bottle & cardboard tube to direct it into the right place, bag balanced precariously on the windowsill. As usual, wifey though I was nuts.

    Only prob I can think of, is if we drilled a hole through the wall the silvapor would drain out again !
    • CommentAuthormarktime
    • CommentTimeJun 23rd 2011 edited
     
    Absolutely admire your hands-on approach and ingenuity.

    Pity about the wallpaper, though.


    :bigsmile::bigsmile::bigsmile::bigsmile::bigsmile::bigsmile::bigsmile:
    • CommentAuthorMegacycles
    • CommentTimeJun 23rd 2011
     
    Full marks, reminds me of my lashed up warmcel blower, nice to know I'm not alone!

    Have to ask how the toilet roll was incorporated into the work flow?
    • CommentAuthorRobL
    • CommentTimeJul 16th 2011
     
    I've fixed a load of faults & retested with the fan. Not as big an improvement as I'd hoped, but some I think (was maybe 65Pa up to 70 or 75Pa now. It's very hard to tell). I've discovered a new source of problems though, that I didn't find first time. Our outer walls are brick, inner breezeblock, and these really aren't airtight at all. It's the plaster that makes it airtight it seems. So inbetween floors there is a draught from between skirting and floorboards. It's not just where the joist punctures a breezeblock wall - but everywhere the breezeblock is exposed.

    So, what to do ? I suggested pulling up all the floorboards and parging the breezeblock to Mrs RobL. This suggestion was not taken at all well. So plan B is to use lots of gap filling acrylic sealer along the skirting-floor joint, and also in any floorboard gaps, and rely making the small box section made by ceiling-joist-floorboard-skirting airtight.
    On the gable ends of the house it's less easy, as there's no no box section that I can use - any air that gets in has free roam to come up through any floorboard gaps anywhere. At least there's only one floorboard to pull up at each end, I'm sure I can get that past the comittee...
    • CommentAuthorRobL
    • CommentTimeJul 16th 2011
     
    Something that occured to me whilst doing this, is why isn't this feature available on MVHR units designed for retrofit ? Or even new build ? They have massive fans that are capable of 50Pa at a decent flowrate, the fans have calibrated pressure/flow curves - so all that's required is pressure sensing & the ability to set both the in & the out fans to blow out, to depressurise a house. Then the occupant should check for leaks, or at least get a readout of pressure which will tell him how efficiently the system could operate. I'd go so far to say that this really ought to be done every so often on an MVHR enabled house. It must be so easy otherwise to have a leak, killing the system effiency. Having this test built into the MVHR would allow it at the touch of a button to check the system is performing as it used to, that you haven't left a window ajar somewhere. It's even a useful security check !

    Maybe this is already done on some units? Manufacturers - you're free to use my idea !

    Attached is a suitable sensor link, it's £73, but has a claimed repeatibility of 0.25Pa whilst my U pipe of water where 1mm=10Pa is say 5Pa repeatability if your eyes are good.
    http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/327245.pdf

    Ps - prev comments about wallpaper have been noted by Mrs RobL, who was & is itching to get it painted. I can't see the point myself, as it won't change the wall U value at all :bigsmile:
    • CommentAuthorbrig001
    • CommentTimeJul 16th 2011
     
    <blockquote><cite>Posted By: RobL</cite>I suggested pulling up all the floorboards and parging the breezeblock to Mrs RobL. This suggestion was not taken at all well.</blockquote>

    The mistake you made there was asking for permission. When I did this ( http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=2896 ), I waited till everyone was out. Sometimes it is easier to ask for forgiveness than permission :bigsmile:

    Brian.
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeJul 18th 2011
     
    Posted By: RobLwhy isn't this feature available on MVHR units designed for retrofit ? Or even new build ? They have massive fans that are capable of 50Pa at a decent flowrate, the fans have calibrated pressure/flow curves - so all that's required is pressure sensing & the ability to set both the in & the out fans to blow out, to depressurise a house.

    That sounds like a good idea!
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeJul 18th 2011
     
    Posted By: RobL: "So, what to do ? I suggested pulling up all the floorboards and parging the breezeblock to Mrs RobL. This suggestion was not taken at all well. So plan B is to use lots of gap filling acrylic sealer along the skirting-floor joint"

    Somebody mentioned some airtight paint either on this site or somewhere else. Maybe you can spray that on without taking all the boards up, although I think it also needs rolling. Plus I've no idea whether the paint works.

    This is the stuff - http://www.blockfiller.co.uk/
    • CommentAuthorRobL
    • CommentTimeJul 18th 2011
     
    I will sometime lift a couple of floorboards at each of the gable ends - that will allow me to make all the joist ends and those breezeblocks airtight somehow. Thanks for the paint link ! I can't see me taking up all of the floorboards along the length of the house though - that would take ages & be very messy, especially as we have exposed floorboards.

    I could bodge the box sections that I mentioned above (wall floorboard joist plasterboard making a 200mm*50mm void along the long lengths of the house)....check for cabling, if none then insert can of squirty foam into a few discrete holes in the floorboards...
    • CommentAuthorbrig001
    • CommentTimeJul 18th 2011
     
    I have used normal masonry paint for this to good effect, but only if the gaps are less than a millimetre. The gaps at the sides of our joists were more like 10mm, and bigger in places, so I used decorators caulk for those. Unfortunately both need the floorboards up and a lot of forgiveness...
    • CommentAuthorecohome
    • CommentTimeJul 24th 2011
     
    Great stuff chaps! :bigsmile: One question, I have this picture of you wandering around the house with a candle in hand to find the leaks. How did you really find them?
    • CommentAuthorwookey
    • CommentTimeJul 24th 2011
     
    Hey Rob - now what did I tell you about the bit between the floorboards :-). Interesting to see it demonstrated rather more scientifically than I did. It's much easier to go in from below than above - plasterboard is much easier to remove/put back than floorboards. I just sawed 30cm off along the edge. (My wife would like me to point out that she is 'Very Tolerant' (TM) )

    Mind you it'll still be very hard to seal unless you also cut the floorboards above back 15-20mm all the way round.

    I don't think that trying to fill all the holes in skirting/floorboards/light fittings etc is going to work very well. Don't forget all the holes from power cables through joists. The _whole_ floor is one not-very-airtight segment. The internal walls don't go through the floor in my house so probably don't in yours either. You could try drilling holes every 2nd or 3rd floorboard and filling the box-section with foam?

    I put a plastic sheet behind the joist and taped it to upstairs and downstairs airtightness layers (the plaster in your case) in order to make it continuous. Obviously you can't do that unless you at least cut 20mm off the floorboard ends and cut a slot in the ceiling.
    • CommentAuthorRobL
    • CommentTimeJul 25th 2011
     
    Opening myself up to a host of jokes now, but I've bought my own endoscope for the job...

    My intention now is to drill holes every 4 or so floorboards, inspect for wires/whatever, then fill with foam if clear. I think I can push in and angle the nozzle so it fills the gap well. It will take a lot of foam - I think about 2dm*0.5dm*150dm = 150litres. A bit of dowling glued in will leave it looking neat.
    Attached is standard piccy - top left block wall, lower right is the joist. There's not a lot of contrast in there, so it's hard to understand the pic. The movie is a lot easier.

    Any foam recommendations?
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeJul 25th 2011
     
    Posted By: RobLAny foam recommendations?

    Um, yes. But not before the 9 'o'clock watershed:wink:
   
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