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Green Building Bible, Fourth Edition
Green Building Bible, fourth edition (both books)
These two books are the perfect starting place to help you get to grips with one of the most vitally important aspects of our society - our homes and living environment.

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    • CommentAuthorShevek
    • CommentTimeJul 9th 2013 edited
     
    What VCL product do you recommend to go on an OSB roof deck under EPS (Jabdec HP) insulation?

    The roof is 9º and I was hoping to simply stick the Jabdec down with PU foam rather than with mechanical fixings. But will PU foam adhere to a VCL? I presume we'll need a VCL that is adhered to the deck too.

    As this detail:
    https://www.dropbox.com/s/zma42wo4j0syq52/green-roof-detail.pdf
  1.  
    will the OSB not act as a VCL if joins are glued and taped (foil tape/air tight tap ?)
  2.  
    ''will the OSB not act as a VCL if joins are glued and taped (foil tape/air tight tape ?)''

    Fostertom wrote, in the thread re UK-produced sarking boards: ''Discovered that Smartply OSB3 (no added formaldehyde) is v much more vapour permeable than 'typical' OSB, presumably being less impregnated with glue. That's good - been using it - but the worry now is that it may also be much less airtight (figures hard to get).''

    So maybe not?
    • CommentAuthorShevek
    • CommentTimeJul 10th 2013 edited
     
    I doubt Jablite would accept it either. They're expecting a a high performance membrane of some sort, turned up to the full thickness at all perimeters.

    Jabdec provides significant resistance to the passage of water vapour, but it should not be considered as a vapour-control layer. An appropriate vapour control layer should be incorporated in the construction below the Jabdec. BS 8217 recommends a minimum Type 3B roofing felt (to BS 747), either fully or partially-bonded to the decking; if the decking is of profiled metal, the felt should be a minimum Type 1F. Alternatively, a high performance vapour control layer can be used as recommended by the manufacturer of the weatherproofing membrane. The vapour- control layer should be turned up to the full thickness of the Jabdec at all perimeters and upstands.
    • CommentAuthorwavy
    • CommentTimeJul 11th 2013
     
    VCL needs to be very effective & v high vapour resistance as there is no breatheablity on the cold side (EPDM layer).
    Need to do a dewpoint calc but the risk of interstitial condensation will be high.
    I have used a self-adhesive bitumen foil product from Sheffield Insulations (SIG) called Alutrix which is easy to install & effective but not cheap.
    Any penetrations, mechanical fixings etc. will need special attention.
    Dont take risks with this element or the roof will deteriorate over time.
    • CommentAuthorTimSmall
    • CommentTimeJul 17th 2013
     
    I used PIR (non foil faced) glued direct to OSB3 and went with no VCL on the underside - the upper layers of the build-up are non hygroscopic, and a WUFI sim showed that the moisture levels in the timber elements were acceptable. Dunno about EPS tho'.

    The WUFI sim showed slightly dryer timber in the long run if you use a VCL below the PIR, but I reckoned that if water ever got in (which is surely will on a flat roof at some stage), then you'd end up scrapping the insulation and with possible timber rot too (in my case it was only feasible to install the VCL at ceiling level). To be on the safe side, I embedded some temp+humidity sensors in the roof build up at various points - next to the OSB3, so that I could keep an eye on the RH - must get around to connecting them up, so that I can see if what's really going on matches the simulation in any way.
    • CommentAuthorShevek
    • CommentTimeJul 23rd 2013 edited
     
    Posted By: wavy have used a self-adhesive bitumen foil product from Sheffield Insulations (SIG) called Alutrix which is easy to install & effective but not cheap.

    Phew, no word of a lie there. Just got a price for £180 a roll off Sig.

    If I'd got it in April, could have got a roll for £10!
    http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Alutrix-600-self-adhesive-vapour-barrier-/190829560621

    Can anybody recommend something cheaper?
    • CommentAuthorShevek
    • CommentTimeJul 27th 2013 edited
     
    Posted By: wavyI have used a self-adhesive bitumen foil product from Sheffield Insulations (SIG) called Alutrix which is easy to install & effective but not cheap.
    Any penetrations, mechanical fixings etc. will need special attention.
    Dont take risks with this element or the roof will deteriorate over time.

    So I got some Alutrix 600. The EPS insulation (Jabdec) will be screw-fixed down over it. What "special attention" do we need to take when we do this?
  3.  
    I gun the holes full of silicone when I am drilling through insulation/VCL. It's not foolproof, I know, but 'feels' better than relying on a screw to be a VCL, if you see what I mean.
    • CommentAuthorShevek
    • CommentTimeJul 27th 2013 edited
     
    Posted By: Nick ParsonsI gun the holes full of silicone when I am drilling through insulation/VCL. It's not foolproof, I know, but 'feels' better than relying on a screw to be a VCL, if you see what I mean.

    Okay thanks Nick, not easy to gun through 150 mm of 150 kPa EPS though. I assume you drill a pilot hole through the insulation?
  4.  
    Yep.
    • CommentAuthorShevek
    • CommentTimeJul 28th 2013 edited
     
    Posted By: ShevekSo I got some Alutrix 600.

    But didn't buy any primer, arghh. Perfect weather now turning to rain tomorrow. Is primer a must on timber decking?

    Edit:
    Where the insulation is to be mechanically fixed, ALUTRIX 600 can be applied without primer
    Where the insulation is to be bonded onto the ALUTRIX 600, (please consult with us regarding the adhesive) the substrate must be primed with FG35 primer before installing the ALUTRIX 600

    Given that we're screwing down the insulation over the Alutrix I think we're in the clear...

    Edit 2:
    Oh and this too:
    *) For mechanically fixed or ballasted roofing systems, priming the roof surface is not usually required

    Think 150 mm Jabtherm and a 150 kg/m2 green roof will be sufficient ballast. Back to work :bigsmile:
    • CommentAuthorShevek
    • CommentTimeJul 28th 2013
     
    Does anyone know if PU expanding foam is okay to stick insulation down to Alutrix. I notice they say in their literature to consult them before using adhesive.
    • CommentAuthorwavy
    • CommentTimeJul 29th 2013
     
    I think I've got some primer left in case you decide you need it - will check - what size area are you covering?
    I found that the edges of the Alutrix lifted from my ply deck where primer was missing. The VCL was a medium term temporary roof so if it had lifted wholesale it would have caused some problems.
    We had a zinc finish which was mech fixed through the insulation. I didn't worry about the screw penetrations as the bitumen in the alutrix appeared to 'self-heal' around screws.
    • CommentAuthorShevek
    • CommentTimeJul 29th 2013 edited
     
    Very kind to offer thanks David but it's all down now. We skipped the primer. It's all sandwiched down with Jabtherm and we're going to put some screws in too.
    • CommentAuthorTimSmall
    • CommentTimeJul 29th 2013
     
    Make sure they're stainless....
    • CommentAuthorShevek
    • CommentTimeJul 29th 2013
     
    Posted By: TimSmallMake sure they're stainless....

    Phew, stainless, really? These no good then?
    http://www.screwfix.com/p/spax-wirox-washer-head-t-star-screws-6-x-200mm-pack-of-50/21977
    • CommentAuthorwavy
    • CommentTimeJul 30th 2013
     
    Is the roof ballasted (sedum or other)? or is there another deck or a membrane finish.
    If you are relying on the screws to resist wind uplift I fear the heads will pull through the insulation.
    There are dedicated insulation fixings with a very large head available and I would get a calculation from the manufacturer based on the fixing and insulation type.
    • CommentAuthorShevek
    • CommentTimeJul 30th 2013 edited
     
    Yeap, the roof is ballasted by 150 mm Jabtherm plus 100 mm green roof. Screws are intended just for sliding load (9º).
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