That was the heavily touted WER system which threw some of us small joinery shops into a flat panic because of the cost of proving compliance. Still much confusion out there, including amongst Building Control deparments and individuals in them, with some BCOs insisting that they'll still be assessing a window on its centre-pane value.

Take a look here, Joe...

http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/forum114/comments.php?DiscussionID=5701&page=1#Item_10

http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/forum114/comments.php?DiscussionID=4085&page=3#Item_2

http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/forum114/comments.php?DiscussionID=5170&page=1#Item_5

A bit of a slog, Joe, but you need to be sure of the questions you're asking, and why, to get an answer because some of the window companies are putting out misleading information. A mate of mine picked up one ad from a window company in a local free rag and the company had to back down on its claim that all windows had, by law now, to carry an energy rating label.

I'm reluctant to give what might sound like a definitive answer here simply because of the variations between local authorities and their BCO's understanding of the new Regs and how to enforce them. I'm inclined (until a little more time has passed for things to straighten out) to advise a quiet word with the local BC department and ask what they'll be looking for. And note the name of the person you're talking to.

Thanks guys for this info, this just proves once again that BCO's in diferent places use different rules or interpret them differently!!!!!. I am already in dispute with the BCO over another issue (but being very very nice to him for obvious reasons) which has meant getting a structural engineer to prove that what was originally passed is still ok.

I will Email him and ask for confirmation of what certification, if any, is required.

Many thanks for your help

Joe

Similar problems here,- if it isn't in writing it does not mean anything!and its funny how often when you ask for the opinion in writing after a discussion you get the reply "Ah, I will think about that and send you a letter. Of course when the letter comes its not quite the same as the verbal - close, but enough difference to make a difference. We now do as Joiner, get it all in writing either a letter or minuets.
Peter

Of course, - and resort to heavy metal when things get too difficult

All ours are nice, Joe, they just don't all agree!

The first criterion for a green window is that the frame grew in a green woodland not too far away.

The second criterion for a green window is that it will last at least a couple of centuries without using any poisonous chemicals.

Sadly, the Buildings Regulations are blind to such things, making outlaws of those of us who make really green windows.

There are further criteria to ask about, such as did the maker walk to work and was his electricity generated close by from renewable sources and was his workshop shared with swallows and bats and are there roses growing round the door?

Buildings Regulations just don't a holistic view of the industry.

I wish Biff was my BCO, I would have no problems at all.

Damon, you don't "savage" anyone. You suck them to death.

Biff, my plan is strawbale and wait for it..........untreated oak windows

batkinson - I certainly wasn't hitting on BCOs, I got on too well with my guys to do that, and of all the council officals one comes into contact with as a tradesman they're the least of anyone's worries. But there is too much evidence of inconsistency - not just amongst different councils but different BCOs within the same office - for anyone to blame the Regs for it, they are in PRINTED form after all and English is our common language. We're experiencing it from the other side of the fence, remember.

I knew the BCOs I worked with very well and knew their particular little idiosyncracies and allowed for them. But then I was a belts and braces guy when it came to complying and the fact that I always kept a written record of what was said, when, and by whom, and then made sure all the various departments got a copy, meant that a quick reference to the file before a site visit ensured we were all singing the same tune. It also helped that I ALWAYS consulted the BCO on my case (not that that was a guarantee that the same one would stay on the case) at the initial stages, even though it pissed off a couple of them because they couldn't see the point! Hmmm.

I have not come into contact with a lot of BCO's so I am not bashing them on mass but I am with Joiner as above that a lack of consistency from the ones I have dealt with does not seem professional.

I was asked to provide structural engineers calcs for RSJ's and roof design, this I did and when it was built the BCO asked for additional timbers because he said "their structural engineer preferred it that way", when I pointed out that their structural engineer passed what my structural engineer had designed he still said he wanted it done!!!! This does not instill confidence in me but I did it as I do not want to upset him as he has to pass the rest of the build.

If the BCO can still insist on altering the design of joe90's engineer then why do they not just do the whole design themselves? Also, if the design insisted upon by the BCO proves to be substandard (i.e. fails) I assume that he would not be obliged to take responsibility for it. But, would not joe90's engineer also claim that because his design had not been followed he was not liable leaving joe90 in the lurch?

Jonti

Is this a dwelling? I believe it might be possible to recycle old windows provided you can meet section 4.20 and Table 2...

http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/uploads/br/BR_PDF_ADL1A_2010.pdf

Table 2 sets out lower limits for the performance of individual elements such as windows. However pay attention to the note in 4.20 which says..

"In general, the achievement of the TER is likely to require significantly better fabric performance then is set out in Table 2"

In other words if all the elements are as bad as Table 2 it probably won't comply overall.

If it's not a dwelling look at 4.30 and Table 4 in here...

http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/uploads/br/BR_PDF_ADL2A_2010.pdf

Proving the old windows meet any particular U-Value might be a problem (eg can you still get the maker to issue a specification?)

I think I've got that right. Horribly complicated these days.

I rang the BCO's office and my BCO is away on holiday for 2 weeks hence no reply to my Email but another helpfull BCO explained what was required for new windows and:-

"I confirm our phone conversation that the windows to be installed will have to have documentation to show it has been tested to either show a U-value of 2.0w/m2.k or better or with a rating of "C".

Also my customer wanted me to ask if we could re-use some of his existing double glazed windows and the helpfull BCO said:(and confirmed in writing)

"I can also confirm that in this instance as discussed there is the option of reusing the existing window as long as they are used in the extension of that room. They will also need to be a minimum of a double glazed uPVC window in good working condition".

So the customer is happy to not have to buy new windows for two rooms. The BCO went on to say this was a local arrangement after a discussion into the "carbon foorprint" of throwing away servicable windows that could be re-used.

Jonti, yes you are right, I would not be happy if I were the SE and an unqualified BCO (a BCO that is not qualified as a structural engineer) questioned my design (especially as the councils SE cleared the calcs) . However, as I was only asked to insert two additional timbers that could not compromise the design and I did not want to upset the apple cart I put them in.

Joe90

As a related aside...

Back in the mid-80s I was works manager for a very big replacement window and door manufacturer. Rather than send the mis-sized d/g units (usually the fault of a stupid rep or domestic customer who couldn't use a tape) for scrap we'd sell them off to local building companies with their own joinery workshop (a rarity now) for fitting into windows/doors for which the right sized hole could be built into the wall. Often the only reason for their not being used was a difference of a couple of mil off a standard size, so if you could accommodate that difference by spacing during the fitting no one would know the difference.

And having also worked for a window fitter supply company, I know that they will retain units until they need the space. In this instance the units have usually been ordered the wrong size by either the fitter or one of "us" in the office and the issue has yet to be resolved.

So it might be worth having a word with your local glazers or window company and ask to be given first option on mis-measures.