Posted By: tonylandlords should foot the bill possibly in return for increased rent

Or to put it another way, find that prospective tenants mentally lump rent and expected fuel costs together, as the 'market' cost of occupation of such a property - and if fuel cost gobbles up most of that 'market' figure, there's little left for rent. In other words, fuel-hungry rental properties will increasingly nose-dive in attainable rent. Compulsory Energy Performance Certificates arrive v soon, for rental properties - had the landlord's EPC Assessor round yesterday - v interesting to talk to him.

It is because energy is cheap. Now if rent was 100 quid a month and energy was 600, things would be different.

that sounds workable.

IMO, the rental sector (residential and business) is stuck in an unvirtuous circle.

When landlords spend money on a building, they expect to recoup it in rent. Therefore, roughly speaking, from the tenant's point of view, improved energy efficiency is cost-neutral. They are either paying it to the energy company or to the landlord.

Tenants don't have enough interest in a building to pay for improvements themselves.

When valuing rents and buildings, by far and away the biggest factor is local comparables. In a street of 3 bed houses, the value of the one very well insulated house just won't and can't stand out. Valuers and buyers/renters, just point to the one next door and negotiate to match the cost/rent of that one.

It is left to the few informed buyers/renters to appreciate the difference.

It is instructive on this forum that most of the changes being carried out are to homes that we have bought to live in for a long time / our retirement / rest of our lives. We'll take the benefit of the capital expenditure on insulation etc, though it might take 30 years.

The green deal "carrot" seems pretty useless. At some point the Goverment will have to consider the "stick" approach too, probably through taxation. Maybe stagger SDLT or capital gains according to energy efficiency - much like they do for cars.

<blockquote><cite>Posted By: CWatters</cite><blockquote><cite>Posted By: dickster</cite>Already do EPC for rental properties. It makes no difference to the prospective tenant's short term views of wanting somewhere to live in the immediate future (In my opinion).</blockquote>

I'm in the process of selling a house that has been significantly improved with the addition of cavity wall insulation solar PV, new boiler, new windows etc. Not a single potential buyer appeared to give weight to these measures or the FIT income (which is around £1000 a year). Indeed one buyer even reported being declined by a mortgage co because of the solar panels despite them being owned not rent a roof.
/blockquote>

This is what always annoys me whenever (very rarely now actually) I watch those TV programmes where people have to choose a potential new home from a variety of houses presented to them. I have yet to see a single programme where the energy costs or energy conservation measures are mentioned. It's usually the size of the garden or the open plan kitchen or the "original features" that gets the most attention. Unbelievable.

Posted By: tonyIf it were my FiT income I would take it with me and let them have the free electricity.

How would you read the meter?

web link the meter, write in the contract something similar to rent a roof schemes and access to inspect and repair.

Very interesting - I'll show that to my landlord!

As ferdinand's comments - this just isn't an important factor in a city like London where rents are massively high compared to fuel costs.

Add in the short term nature of our rental market - the nonsense of 6 month tenancies - and it becomes even less significant.

Being in a small rented flat for the last 6 months it's actually surprised me how little our bills have changed compared to a large house. Electricity consumption doesn't change much - still have the same 'always on' fridge/internet, same amount of cooking and still only two of us so same amount of lighting.

Don't use any less water and still have a standing charge. It's been summer so wont have full year compratives but in the house our gas bill was I think in the region of £50 a month over the year. In a flat I'd hope that would drop by at least a third but the additional change from insulation/efficiency improvements is nto going to be material given the monthly rent is over £1500.

Can't wait to leave - only a few weeks now.

I think one of the big problems is that when it comes to housing, most people go on what "everyone else" thinks, even though "everyone else" as individuals are often poorly informed. And of course there is a certain rationality in that if "everyone" thinks a certain type of home is desirable, then on an individual level a buyer would be rational in choosing that home as it will be more likely to hold or increase its value and be easy to sell, even if on its own merits the home is poor.

Posted By: pmusgroveWhat is the score elsewhere in Europe?

We pay 27% (yep twenty seven) VAT on everything including energy - helps drive the black economy
IMO any variation from the standard VAT rate is a political game

Posted By: pmusgroveWhy is energy VAT at 5% but other items at 20%?

Dunno but I assume it's a compromise between essential items (e.g., food) being VAT free (or zero rated, I forget because I don't care) and full-rate VAT on more discretionary stuff.

Personally, I'd like to see 20% on energy. And an announcement that the 5% on insulation is going to 20% a couple of years later.