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Green Building Bible, Fourth Edition
Green Building Bible, fourth edition (both books)
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    • CommentAuthorANGAND
    • CommentTimeFeb 22nd 2007
     
    Our old Welsh stone farmhouse was ‘modernised’ and cement rough rendered around 16 years ago. Though the render is largely in good condition there are a few hairline cracks and we are now getting patches of penetrating damp showing as mould, flaking paint and salt efflorescence on internal walls.

    Chipping off the render and starting again is not an option unfortunately. So we are considering other ways to rectify the situation. We’ve heard about a microporous product called Andura (used by many companies that advertise render repair and restoration) and Beeck’s silicate paints.

    Can anyone advise us or share their experience? The walls are 65cm thick stone/rubble fill so inserting aeration bricks may not be possible.

    thanks.
    •  
      CommentAuthornigel
    • CommentTimeFeb 22nd 2007
     
    Silicate paints are excellent products but are not going to deal with your problem.
    Firstly they are not recommended for use on render which has been waterproofed and secondly they will not help at all where you have cracking render as the mositure is finding its way behind the render. It cannot escape outwards because the cement render is essentially waterproof.

    Any other additional render added on top of the cement is a risk, it could work or it could make the situation worse. Also many of these render systems are not cheap anyway.

    I hear what you say about removing the render not being an option, is that for cost reasons or some other reason.

    If you plan to stay in this house for some time it may well be more cost effective to do it once and do it properly however tempting it may be to find a quick fix.
  1.  
    I agree with Nigel, The answer is to have an un-painted porus render. What you have now, sounds like a rich sand and cement mix. I would not render over the top, as any new coats will add weight and if the original coat is not sound, it may crack further and fall off.
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeFeb 23rd 2007
     
    I also agree totally with Nigel, however against my better judgement an experienced local builder did apply some kind of watery silicone stuff to just such a wall - huge 5 storeys gable end of Georgian mansion cement rendered on rubble stone, suffering penetration - and it worked! Other times I had the stuff taken off and all underneath made good and well lime-pointed - and that worked too.
    • CommentAuthorANGAND
    • CommentTimeFeb 25th 2007
     
    The reason for not removing the render is cost (mainly) and time. Also, not sure what it would expose as house has been modified so probably not all stone underneath. We want to build a passive solar space (conservatory) on the south frontage this spring, which will take all our savings. One option is to just weatherproof this wall (which has window openings changed in past so may be block work underneath) and consider taking render off walls that haven't been modified, sometime in future. BUT if we do this, what's the best product for the south facing wall - the Andura system used by many companies makes many claims about durabilty and lifetime...just not sure whether to go for this. And, once the solar space is in place, removing the render will NOT be an option in the future. Help!
    •  
      CommentAuthornigel
    • CommentTimeFeb 25th 2007
     
    Then you need to replace with a breathable render and most will recommend a lime based render.

    St Astier make a suitable one as do Keim with both you probably want to use a reinforcement mesh.
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeFeb 27th 2007
     
    If you do take the render off, top option is to just properly repoint what's underneath. If that's not presentable, needs re-covering-up, then yes a breatheable render, and all-lime is good for that, but an unfmiliar challenge to most builders.

    As far as I know, there's another way to breatheability, which is common in the everyday building industry. Anyone agree/disagree? It's roughcast render. First two coats can be ordinary sand/cement render (with lowest possible cement content, but still impervious). The final roughcast coat is the key to making this cement-based, therefore impervious, system breatheable. Roughcast is small round aggregate e.g pea gravel mixed up in a slurry and flung at the wall. When it sets, the inevitable hairline shrinkage cracks begin, and the point is that the space between every 'pea' of gravel is a stress-riser at approx. 10-12mm c/cs in all directions. So the shrinkage happens evenly all over at close centres; close enough that every bit of water that enters by capillary attraction is close to an escape route (a crack) and can evaporate out when the sun shines on the wall. Whereas smooth render cracks in much larger slabs. Then the water that's entered by capllilary attraction and spread out laterally by soaking through the permeable masonry behind the slabs of impervious render, is too far from any exit to evaporate out when the sun shines on the wall. Smooth render therefore becomes a one-way pump for water.

    The important thing is for all coats to go on green-on-green - i.e. each coat goes on before the last has matured. That is, set but not looking dry. That way, all bonds together chemically and the stress-risers properly affect the whole depth of the render. The final slurry coat is easily done with bag-lime rather than cement, no problem. It's traditionally applied by flinging with a small coal-shovel from a bucket, but it's easier to use a Tyrollean spatter-gun. It can be painted (with permeable masonry paint) or it can be made durably self-finished by mixing e.g. fine Bath stone dust into the slurry. An experienced plasterer should know about all this, mix recipes etc. Not sure myself - does anyone know? Total thickness of the 3 coats about 25mm.
  2.  
    Hi fostertom,

    I agree with you on the whole, and I have on occasion been asked to render walls with very weak sand/cement mixes, not much fun though as workability becomes an issue as cement content is reduced -not something I would do out of choice. My preference is a sand: cement: lime render but this depends on the building and/or background. I understand why some prefer all lime mixes and I agree that in some situations this is the way to go. Proportions used are dependent on background, but the golden rule is to make subsequent coats ‘lighter’ ie less cement. 5:1:1 is a good all round mix as a scratch coat.

    Regarding Rough cast/Harling, I have not considered the science behind this but it is traditionally recommended as the best finish in areas of high exposure simply because it presents an increased surface area for moisture to evaporate from. Depending on the materials used, it can indeed be porus and if done properly requires no painting for an attractive finish. The best way to achieve this is with a ‘harling bat’, or if a coal scuttle is used, flatten the edges to ensure even spread of the mix. Also this is a very messy job and not to be recommended without goggles gloves, full body armour etc Also cover everything you don’t want covered in mortar with temporary sheeting. Visually, I think tyrolean is a poor substitute for true harling.


    Regarding the thickness and number of coats, 3 totalling 25-30mm seems about right but this varies depending on the shape of the background. As to when to cover each coat, that is always a tricky call, and depends totally which of the many finishes you are trying to attain. Trying to roughcast a partially dried wall for example is a recipe for disaster, in terms of the quality of the finish. The material will stick to the dry areas and slide down those which are still damp. Continuity of mix proportions is also a critical factor with this.

    Getting someone who is well recommended, and well experienced is always the way to go - not a job for an apprentice.
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeFeb 27th 2007 edited
     
    That's added a lot to my knowledge - thanks.
    True Tyrollean is also good for similar reasons - that's sandy/gritty, without pea-gravel, flung onto the wall and left all jagged. But agreed it doesn't look half as nice as roughcast(daansaaf)/harling(oopnoorth}, which is smoothly, creamily knobbly. I'm not suggesting Tyrollean, just use of the Tyrollean spatter-gun to apply the roughcast. Haven't tried it myself but am told it's the way to go, much less mess. Definitely a skilled job, either way.
  3.  
    Yes Tyrolean can also be very attractive, and 'culamix' comes in premixed bags with various pigments.

    The spatter gun is limited however for bespoke roughcast mixes, as it will only effectively 'fling' minimal size aggregate such as stone dust. If you want a 'heavier' finish such as that with quarter chippins then you have to resort to throwing it on by hand.

    I have heard of electrically powered roughcast machines, but have no experience of them. Maybe these work, anyone?
    • CommentAuthorGuest
    • CommentTimeMar 12th 2007
     
    We are in the process of buying a fairly run down post-war semi with rendered brick cavity walls. We want to build a single storey extension & have seen in Germany & Luxembourg a simple system of a single block inner leaf, with insulation fitted, mesh & render. Providing sufficient insulation is fitted will this meet building regs? Anyone any experience of this, including the type of insulation?

    Cheers,

    Brian
    • CommentAuthorGuest
    • CommentTimeMar 20th 2007
     
    thanks this is a common problem especially in regions where the rainfall and winds are more frequent and heavy. Chimney stacks of course are an issue which should be looked at as well not only the flashing but the render and brickwork and should be coated with the anti-damp paints and something from USA called Belzone clear glaze - any comments on this product which I am about to use would be welcomed.
    • CommentAuthorGuest
    • CommentTimeMar 20th 2007
     
    Belzona have a UK base in Harrogate.
    • CommentAuthorGuest
    • CommentTimeMar 23rd 2007
     
    G'day folks,

    I have a brick wall that I wanted to render with a lime:sand:cement mixture (1:0.5:4). the cement is purely for a litle ealy strength and water resistance. I plan to apply a single thin coat of approx 5-6 mm. I do not understand why I would need a thick (25 mm) coating as it would make the wall very heavy - I'm taking about a brick-veneer wall of a house.
    As a test measure, I applied this thin coating to a concrete block wall and it has stayed on though a whole year of 4 seasons without any problems. This leads me to think that this 5-6 mm coat should do the trick - or am I missing something ?
    Any suggestions?
    • CommentAuthorbiffvernon
    • CommentTimeMar 23rd 2007
     
    NO No NO

    Leave out the cement. Just use sand and lime 3:1
    • CommentAuthorGuest
    • CommentTimeMar 26th 2007
     
    Oh Dear ! I shall leave out the cement then....
    But what about my idea of a 5-6 mm single coat ?
    •  
      CommentAuthornigel
    • CommentTimeMar 26th 2007
     
    Give the guys at www.lime-green.co.uk a call they will give you sound advice.
    • CommentAuthorbiffvernon
    • CommentTimeMar 26th 2007
     
    5-6mm sounds pretty thin but it depends on the state of the wall. That thickness would hardly even out the roughness on many walls. Just what purpose do you have in mind for your planned render?

    Of course a really thin layer is called limewash - but leave out the sand.
  4.  
    Porus render relies on thickness for weathering performance. It must be sufficiently thick to accomodate water tracking towards the inside of the building. This then evaporates to the outside before it tracks inside causing damage to internal surfaces.

    The BS for rendering suggests three coats of approx 10mm on a severely exposed site for this reason.
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