I'm trying to buy a now closed pub from a national Pubco chain. I offered considerably less than the asking price, as this was based on the value of the ongoing business and as the pub is closed my offer was based on the likely end value less the not inconsiderable renovation costs (I want to do a good job and end up with a home to be proud of!). The offer was subject to me gaining planning approval for change of use from A4 (a pub) to C3 (Residential)!

Anyway after 2 weeks considering my offer they have said they'll only accept offers without strings attached.

So this raised a few questions - How easy is it to gain permission for ‘change of use’? Anyone got any experience in this area, or suggestions regarding the correct approach. Can I submit an application now, in the hope that by the time I own the pub ‘change of use’ will have been granted? Should I be running a mile?

Do NOT buy the place until you have permission for change of use in writing, physically in your hands and are happy with any planning conditions.

Pub down the road from us closed for business some years ago. Couldn't sell it as a pub as it wasn't profitable. Then after being empty a few years it burnt down. Was purchased in a burnt out condition with the intention to convert to a house. The planners have refused permission for change of use. More years later it's still out of use. Madness.

You can submit an application before you own it (with owners permission) but if you get planning permission you can bet the owners will jack up the price and/or decide to send it to auction.

Making an offer to purchase subject to planning isn't enough to protect you. You need to agree and sign a proper option to purchase contract drawn up by a solicitor that has done one before. Otherwise they will find a way to back out of the deal if you manage to increase it's value.

If you are really keen on the place and they won't agree to binding deal then the only other way to proceed is to get it properly valued as a pub by an accountant or similar. Then make them an offer well below that to take into account the extra cost and risk that you might have to sell it as a pub in a years time with the economy on the way down. Perhaps try and trace the previous landlord? Ask locals if it was heaving with people at lunchtimes mid week? Reputation for good food etc? Pubs are funny things. I used to know one run by a great team, recently refurbished and extended, good food etc but there is just something about the place that means it's not making lots of money. Really hard to put your finger on what the problem is and why people don't go. Could simply be because the ground it's on is two feet higher than the road (Not that the driveway is steep or anything).

I'm starting by talking to the planner and the conservation officer to test their positions regarding Change of Use.

I'm familiar with 'options to purchase' contracts as I was involved with one or two in a previous life. I'm not sure the Pubco will play ball as their current stance is 'we will not sell with strings attached' !!

Regarding making an offer based on current trade etc. I met up with the current temporary lendlord two weeks ago and he told me that the Pubco had a contact with his boss (who runs a small company providing temporary landlords) to run the pub on the Pubco's behalf untill such time as a buyer could be found. Since then the temporary landlord has left. I had a quick chart with him just before we did a runner and he said he could not envisage living in such a hovel for the next 6 months, so had taken another job (sorry that was my fault , I said that I was interested in buying the place and it would take at least 6 months to do a deal !!). So the pub is now closed, the chef has left, as have all the staff, so it's not making any money at present, in fact it's costing the Punco £10k pa in business rates. My latest offer was 50% below the asking price and I thing they would have accepted it without strings attached!!

One good thing, it's not the last pub inthe village and the locals hate the place. In the last 4 years it's had 6 landlords, none of whom have made any money and all of whom have alienated the locals.

<blockquote><cite>Posted By: CWatters</cite>Don't forget it's not their decision. They only advise the committee who are subject to pressure from locals.</blockquote>

Would I be better talking to local Parish Council members first then the planning committee members for my area?

It might also be worth talking to the licensing authority as they might have a view as to the ceasing of the license. As I recall the granting of a license requires that a local need has to be shown, the reverse might also be true if there are other pubs in the village / area and you want to cease the license. If the Licensing authority support the ceasing of the pub this should help with the PP.

Good to read PPS7 before going to see parish/planning committee/planners. Also look at local development plans for area - any housing estates/infrastructure planned on outskirts? Planning Inspector advised me once to look at 'what would be better than my proposal' and argue out from there. What other business could the pub become - nursery/restaurant/b+b/workshop etc and how/why would that be better (or not) than a house which would bring say 4-6 person family into the area who would use local facilities (including local trades in the building of) and improve external appearance of area....is there a shortage of good housing stock, causing a decline in trade in existing commercial premises.

Posted By: kilmohi im new to the forum ... the council planning department ... didn't foresee any major issues with the change of use.

the hardest part is where i am at now and that is satisfying the required building regulations for change of use, part L especially is proving tricky as im in a conservation area and its a 150 year old lime / brick constructed building.

Hello Kilmo and welcome to the forum.

So it seems that your question is not about change of use at all but about meeting Part L Building Regs in a conservation area. In which case, I suggest that you start your own thread for the question, whatever the question is, rather than try to reuse this thread.

yes not a question, just a comment, just making it clear change of use isn't just about planning permission.

Ah, OK, evidently my brain is wired in a different way on this. I don't see any connection between a change of use application and meeting building regs. They're two completely separate things in my head. Obviously any particular project is going to involve both planning and building regs as well as lots of other aspects, but that's not enough to form a link for me. Still, it clearly does make a connection for others; 's'wat makes the world go round.

basically when a building undergoes a "change of use" it need to be brought up to current building standards,
obviously any new building work associated with change will have to comply with building regs but also any retained thermal elements ( doors/walls/floors etc) that does not meet a threshold Uvalue have to be upgraded to a improved value.

e.g
Cavity Wall
Threshold 0.70 W/m²
Improved 0.55 W/m²

solid Wall
Threshold 0.70 W/m²
Improved 0.30 W/m²

Floors
Threshold 0.70 W/m²
Improved 0.25 W/m²

windows/doors
Threshold 3.30 W/m²

You will have to make the building, or part of the building to which the change
of use occurs comply with some of the building regulation requirements to the
same standard as applies to new buildings.

In all cases of change of use the following applies:
(1)• B1 (means of warning and escape)
• B2 (internal fire spread - linings)
• B3 (internal fire spread - structure)
• B4 (2) (external fire spread - roofs)
• B5 (access and facilities for the fire service)
• C2(c) (interstitial and surface condensation)
• F1 and F2 (ventilation)
• G1 (cold water supply)
• G3 (1) to (3) (hot water supply and systems)
• G4 (sanitary conveniences and washing facilities)
• G5 (bathrooms)
• G6 (kitchen and food preparation areas)
• H1 (foul water drainage)
• H6 (solid waste storage)
• J1 to J4 (combustion appliances)
• L1 (conservation of fuel and power)
• P1 (electrical safety)



here is a guilde from my local council
http://www.stevenage.gov.uk/content/15953/24595/24598/TechnicalLeaflet19-L1BChangeOfUse.pdf

Well I've met the Conservation Officer and he' happy with everyting I'm proposing to do with the property. He's very much of the view that if something is'nt done with end of life buildings they may just be left to rot, he gave a couple of local examples!! The only thing he did suggest was that we did some research into the history of the property as it was built around the mid 1700s and he is aware that its been a farm house, a court (with cells, now buried), a pub and a brewery and possibly a malt house.

Whilst doing a very thorough inspection of the property he's also pointed out (I'd already spotted it) that there is current and ongoing settlement as a result of the removal of internal walls at GF level by the Pubco. He's suggested that the whole of the rear wall, one gable end wall and two internal structural walls will need to be taken down and rebuilt. As the rear wall supports the main roof and a subsiduary roof these will have to come off as well. Great!!

So I've spoken to the Pubco and put them on notice that there are serious structural problems with the building and that I will be getting a structural engineer. Also suggested that as it's still open as a pub that they may wish to get take a look! Once I have the report I'll be re-negotiation the price again!

<blockquote><cite>Posted By: CWatters</cite>
That won't be cheap.

You should also check if the work required amounts to a knock down and rebuild in the eyes of the planners. They usually have a definition somewhere that explains how many walls must be retained before it's considered a knock down and rebuild. Make sure you won't exceed that limit. The issue is that PP for change of use/conversion is not the same as PP for a knock down and rebuild. You might need the latter if enough walls need rebuilding.

I recall one case where the BCO arrived to make a routine inspection, during which he told the owner that another wall was too unstable to be retained. He advised the owner to rebuild it BUT did not tell them that would mean they needed to get their PP revised. The planners initially refused saying that a knock down and rebuild amounted to a new building in the countryside where as a conversion didn't. If I remember rightly it had to go to appeal.</blockquote>

I seem to recall something in the GD programme with the old barn that was undermined for an underground house where that was mentioned. If my memory is right, they had to build an enormous steel frame just to hold a gable end wall up, as if it fell down their PP would have been invalid!

Posted By: JSHarrisI seem to recall something in the GD programme with the old barn that was undermined for an underground house where that was mentioned. If my memory is right, they had to build an enormous steel frame just to hold a gable end wall up, as if it fell down their PP would have been invalid!

This one: http://www.aipassivhaus.com/blg-march09.html

Posted By: JSHarrisIt pretty much summarises all that's completely barking mad with bits of our planning system, in my view. In fact, I'd go as far as to say that I feel as strongly about planners as Keith does about badgers, but in completely the opposite sense.

Me too. Too often filled with their own self-importance.

Ah well. C'est la Vie.