Home  5  Books  5  GBEzine  5  News  5  HelpDesk  5  Register  5  GreenBuilding.co.uk
Not signed in (Sign In)

Categories



Green Building Bible, Fourth Edition
Green Building Bible, fourth edition (both books)
These two books are the perfect starting place to help you get to grips with one of the most vitally important aspects of our society - our homes and living environment.

PLEASE NOTE: A download link for Volume 1 will be sent to you by email and Volume 2 will be sent to you by post as a book.

Buy individually or both books together. Delivery is free!


powered by Surfing Waves




Vanilla 1.0.3 is a product of Lussumo. More Information: Documentation, Community Support.

Welcome to new Forum Visitors
Join the forum now and benefit from discussions with thousands of other green building fans and discounts on Green Building Press publications: Apply now.




    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeJun 26th 2012 edited
     
    A few days ago the discussion, prompted by Damon again, about the validity of East facing PV came up. I think I mentioned, though may have just thought it, that if Grid Balancing is to become a feature then there would need to be some East and some West facing as well as South facing.
    So I did what I do, went and found some solar data and started to look at it.
    The preliminary results are below:
    The "Solar Resource" chart shows the comparative difference between the two locations (Norfolk and Cornwall).
    The "Fraction of solar resource before and after noon" chart shows the distribution. I have time shifted by half an hour for the differences in longitude, not spot on I know but close enough.
    There is also some data missing from both sets that I have not yet corrected for, but apart from Cornwall's Month 1 (January) there should not be enough data missing to make a significant difference.
    A quick look at the data seems to show that there is little difference in resource distribution between Norfolk and Cornwall, Cornwall being better in the summer. Both locations seems to be better in the afternoon, or more West facing.

    The pictures.
      Solar Resource.jpg
      Morning Afternoon Fraction.jpg
    •  
      CommentAuthorDamonHD
    • CommentTimeJun 26th 2012
     
    Not "need to be", just "would be helpful to have some" as it will broaden the generation curve on each day, especially in summer, so may eat into the evening peak a little.

    Have a look at this new report out today about domestic load curves, BTW:

    http://randd.defra.gov.uk/Default.aspx?Menu=Menu&Module=More&Location=None&ProjectID=17359&FromSearch=Y&Publisher=1&SearchText=EV0702&SortString=ProjectCode&SortOrder=Asc&Paging=10#Description

    Only had time to glance at it so far, but v interesting for electric heating households vs not.

    Rgds

    Damon
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeJun 26th 2012
     
    Heard about it on the wireless this morning, 600 pages of rubbish for 10 of interest.
    Shall put it on the Reader I think.
  1.  
    thank you for this SteamyTea. Very interesting. My PV are south east, and solar thermal south west, and I had a feeling that south west was the better aspect. Seems to concur with that.
    •  
      CommentAuthorted
    • CommentTimeJun 29th 2012
     
    East facing pv will be affected by morning mist, which is generally not something that would be repeated in the evening so west facing would be unaffected by this phenomenon. I would suspect that this could have a large variance on a very local basis though.
    •  
      CommentAuthorDamonHD
    • CommentTimeJun 29th 2012
     
    When I last looked in PVGIS for my area there was very little difference between east- and west- facing, and I believe that it *does* take these factors into consideration.

    I certainly don't see much difference between my east- and west- facing sub-arrays due to that sort of effect (I have a shading issue on the east from a huge tree some distance away which muddies the waters).

    Rgds

    Damon
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeJun 29th 2012
     
    Lots of afternoon and evening mist here. Geography and topology greatly changes things.
    St. Just never sees any sun, not ever.
    • CommentAuthorJoiner
    • CommentTimeJun 30th 2012 edited
     
    Mist? Nick, just close the windows when you fancy a fag! :wink:

    Glad this subject's been resurrected because when I originally considered pv (and st) some time ago I had my doubts because of the (ridge) NNE - SSW alignment, but casual observation (prompted by the increasing awareness informed by various threads on here) is making me seriously reconsider the options.

    The wife being a "cup of tea and a couple of chapters of my book" on waking type of person, I am always telling her that she's missing "the best part of the day". Even when the weather is generally lousy, walking the dog in the early part of the day is such a pleasure BECAUSE the sun is frequently shining between dawn and, say, seven o'clock, especially in the winter. (As if on cue, the clouds have just closed over at 06.44.)

    'Atmospherics' as we lay people call it.

    Nice big roof, too. And no neighbours.

    Wonder if I can convince the wife (who's richer than me) to choose pv over a new car? :confused:
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeJun 30th 2012
     
    Better hurry up on the PV.
    Do you have any shading on the proposed side? That can kill some systems. I was amazed how much a few blades of grass covering a ground mount system caused the panel to warm up on the shaded bit.
    •  
      CommentAuthorDamonHD
    • CommentTimeJun 30th 2012
     
    Yes, try and get in before Aug 1st big tariff change if you can...

    Rgds

    Damon
    • CommentAuthorJoiner
    • CommentTimeJun 30th 2012
     
    No chance of this year, too much to do to repair the roof, which we can now do with confidence since the golf course which caused all the damage has closed down. At times, this place was like a suburb of Beirut. Tiles smashed, one of the large sash windows in the kitchen broken, vehicles damaged.
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeJun 30th 2012
     
    You can get it fitted, then take it down again, at 16p/kWh and steadily declining to about 9p (plus the inflation linked export part), there is not going to be much return on investment compared to an ISA. CO2 saving is a different matter, but how much Aerogel insulation would 7 to 8k buy you.
  2.  
    <blockquote><cite>Posted By: SteamyTea</cite>Lots of afternoon and evening mist here. Geography and topology greatly changes things.
    St. Just never sees any sun, not ever.</blockquote>
    Oh, you poor things! Meanwhile up in the far North I've seen more Sun in June than in April+May together (well more PV generated). And more rain possibly ...

    The only sizeable bit of clear roof left I've got is slightly-S-of-E and I've been trying to work out if it would be worth putting more PV &/or ST on it. I've been wondering for a while about checking am -vs- pm generation on my slightly-W-of-S panels, suspecting that mornings were better: but I didn't think I had the data to check it.

    But following a prompt from Damon, I've found I have the full minute-by-minute log of inverter stats starting Sun Mar 21 06:12:01 2010

    The 31.9MB file is linked from http://www.ccandc.org/cgi-bin/pv?START=end-1d&END=now
    if anyone else wants to play with it :-) The usual provisos: the data only applies to me (and probably the array in the next street N of me) ~12km from the North Sea, just out of the Tyne Valley, both of which lead to very localised weather.

    Now to work out what I want to know, then how to extract it from 597,653 rows of data!

    -- Chris
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeJul 1st 2012
     
    Running your numbers now, taking a while and the processor is getting warm
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeJul 1st 2012
     
    Looks like you get sunnier mornings.
  3.  
    <blockquote><cite>Posted By: SteamyTea</cite>Running your numbers now, taking a while and the processor is getting warm

    Looks like you get sunnier mornings.</blockquote>

    Thank you VERY MUCH! I owe you the kWh the processing took!

    Meanwhile my 133t spreadsheet skills resulted in my weekly/monthly/FiT/GBF spreadsheet reverting to a 5 week old version, so I've had to rekey my data :-/ and revise my June figures from best-ever to worst-ever.

    -- Chris
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeJul 1st 2012 edited
     
    I am still playing with your data, going to try and put a magnitude on the difference.
    Does your logger change the clock to the really, really, annoying and pointless BST?
    And are you 5° East or West of South?
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeJul 1st 2012 edited
     
    Change of plan, have checked it out and it is the other way around (was to do with blanks and zeros, text and numbers).
    Have some pictures:
      2010.jpg
      2011.jpg
      2012.jpg
  4.  
    <blockquote><cite>Posted By: SteamyTea</cite>Change of plan, have checked it out and it is the other way around (was to do with blanks and zeros, text and numbers).</blockquote>

    Panels face a little west of south, so in theory I expect to get better exposure p.m. but my impression was that a.m. are often clearer than p.m. This clearly says not. Hmmm subjective impressions 0, reality 1 :-)

    Looking at the program (fslurp) that talks to the inverter it does
    InverterGlobals.timestamp = time(NULL);
    then
    timeBuf = ctime_r(&InverterGlobals.timestamp, ctimeBuf);
    So yup, it uses localtime :-/

    Hmm now that I've found that, I could just change that to gmtime_r() ... but I also find there's a new version out so perhaps I'll check that out first.

    Thank you once again for extracting meaning from raw data.

    -- Chris
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeJul 2nd 2012 edited
     
    I can have a look at what happens when the panel is 5° West of South as it is pretty marginal, shall also see if changing to BST for the summer makes much difference. It is pretty marginal up your way though.
    Is there any shading from anything at all?
    Edit:
    It makes the picture even worse if I adjust for an extra half hour (should be 20 minutes but I have chopped your data down to 30 minute segments) and adjust for BST between week 13 and 44 inclusive (which makes any West facing surface seem to get an extra hour of power, though in reality nothing really changes except where we call Midday).
    You do seem to get extra morning sun in the winter, so that may be what you notice, unless like me you are usually awake by 5:30AM.
    I shall try, sometime, to get some decent independent solar data for the NE and see what is really happening.
      2012a.jpg
      2011a.jpg
      2010a.jpg
  5.  
    <blockquote><cite>Posted By: SteamyTea</cite></blockquote>
    I hope this wasn't an overnight processing run :-)

    <blockquote>It is pretty marginal up your way though.</blockquote>
    I suspect that PV altogether is a pretty marginal proposition up here :-/

    <blockquote>Is there any shading from anything at all?</blockquote>
    There is shadow from the dormer on one panel in the morning and one in the evening as the sun crosses the ridgeline, but shouldn't last long (15-30min?). On clear days I imagine I can see the clipping as a notch out of the bell-curve.
    In winter there may be a lot more from buildings on the other side of the street -- I am slightly higher but the sun doesn't get very high: it rises and sets south of the ridgeline.

    <blockquote>You do seem to get extra morning sun in the winter, so that may be what you notice, unless like me you are usually awake by 5:30AM.</blockquote>
    I may be awake at that time, but it's the walk to the Metro ~7am (later in winter!) when I notice the weather :-)

    I noticed on Saturday morning that at 8am the sun was a/ well up, b/ v.bright, c/ still behind the ridgeline, i.e. not hitting the panels :-( So could both be true? it is clearer in the mornings but the sun doesn't hit the panels until after 9am so the extra time in the afternoon/evening (from the slight W view) wins over the clearer morning.

    As you say: needs more data.

    All this slicing and dicing of data is making wonder what tools and techniques I missed skyving most of my A-level maths lessons!

    -- Chris
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeJul 2nd 2012
     
    That shading, can you lean out the dormer and touch the panel where the shadow is, then try touching a bit where the shadow isn't and tell us what you notice.
    I guess your on a single string, so shadowing could seriously reduce/stop production.
    You missed nothing during classes apart from rote learning, which isn't learning at all really, :wink:
Add your comments

    Username Password
  • Format comments as
 
   
The Ecobuilding Buzz
Site Map    |   Home    |   View Cart    |   Pressroom   |   Business   |   Links   
Logout    

© Green Building Press